Re: Philosophy questions - Morality & Moral Theories
 

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Using utilitarianism for a basis of policy is oppressive.

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Any policy that forces someone to do or not do something could be seen as oppressive. Even the very basic: "don't steal". Who has the right to tell me what I do and don't own? I think I own the world, and everything in it. Are you going to force me to let you have some of my stuff? That's oppression.

Re: Philosophy questions - Morality & Moral Theories
 

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Any policy that forces someone to do or not do something could be seen as oppressive. Even the very basic: "don't steal". Who has the right to tell me what I do and don't own?

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The real owner.

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I think I own the world, and everything in it. Are you going to force me to let you have some of my stuff? That's oppression.

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That's basically the statist argument. Unfortunately, decree isn't sufficient to claim a legitimate property right. Nice try, though.

Re: Philosophy questions - Morality & Moral Theories
 

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Any policy that forces someone to do or not do something could be seen as oppressive. Even the very basic: "don't steal". Who has the right to tell me what I do and don't own?

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The real owner.

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Which is??

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I think I own the world, and everything in it. Are you going to force me to let you have some of my stuff? That's oppression.

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That's basically the statist argument. Unfortunately, decree isn't sufficient to claim a legitimate property right. Nice try, though.

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Nice try refuting me. So, who gets to decide who owns what? Take our 1000-person island... who owns it? I say I do. And who are you to oppress me by taking my property?

Re: Philosophy questions - Morality & Moral Theories
 

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That's basically the statist argument. Unfortunately, decree isn't sufficient to claim a legitimate property right. Nice try, though.

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What about force? Those are the only two methods I know of for the origination of land ownership.

Scott

Re: Philosophy questions - Morality & Moral Theories
 

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That's basically the statist argument. Unfortunately, decree isn't sufficient to claim a legitimate property right. Nice try, though.

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What about force? Those are the only two methods I know of for the origination of land ownership.

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Yep. And both are oppression. So, property rights are gained by oppression. So, now that we are all oppressed, perhaps we should arrange some agreements so that we can be happy?

Re: Philosophy questions - Morality & Moral Theories
 

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That's basically the statist argument. Unfortunately, decree isn't sufficient to claim a legitimate property right. Nice try, though.

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Nice try refuting me. So, who gets to decide who owns what? Take our 1000-person island... who owns it? I say I do. And who are you to oppress me by taking my property?

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Again, decree is not a legitimate method of acquiring property. It is used (by states, often) as a method of gaining control of property, but it does not confer a legitimate property right.

Re: Philosophy questions - Morality & Moral Theories
 

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What about force? Those are the only two methods I know of for the origination of land ownership.

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Force is a method of gaining *control* of property. It does not, however give you a property right.

Property rights stem from self-ownership. If you own yourself, you also own your labor. You can sell your labor to others in exchange for property, which is a legitimate way of obtaining a property right. You also can mix your labor with unowned materials, and obtain a property right in the finished product. Homesteading of land is a way of origination property rights in land.

You can use decree, conquest, or eminent domain (a sort of combination of decree and conquest) to obtain "normative control" of property. That's not the same as legitimately owning it.

Re: Philosophy questions - Morality & Moral Theories
 

Note also, the logical conclusion of this is that states cannot ever legitimately own property, since a state cannot work the land except with either slave labor or by paying for labor (or by paying for the land directly) with stolen property (taxes).

Re: Philosophy questions - Morality & Moral Theories
 

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You can sell your labor to others in exchange for property

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And the person who you obtain the property from, please tell me how they obtained it without using force or decree.

Scott

Re: Philosophy questions - Morality & Moral Theories
 

Read the next sentence.