5/10 i hate unraised pots
 

no reads

utg limps, sb limps, i check red 5s in bb

flop is Ad4d2x, sb leads, i raise?

Re: 5/10 i hate unraised pots
 

I prefer calling here. If UTG calls, then it's pretty obvious that either

a) one of them has you beat and one of them has a draw, or
b) both of them have you beat.

It's very unlikely that both of them have nothing but a draw, but even if that's the case, they have oodles of outs since they have overcards to your pair in addition to their straight/flush draws.

And the pot is very tiny. I don't like building a large pot with a dangerous hand.

So, given no reads, I call the flop. If UTG calls and SB bets the turn, I raise the turn as a semibluff if I pick up a diamond on the turn. If not, I just call the turn and plan on calling the river. Oh, and if UTG folds to my turn raise and SB calls, I check behind on any river.

Re: 5/10 i hate unraised pots
 

Raise the turn, check behind on the turn to any scare cards, call any river bet.

Re: 5/10 i hate unraised pots
 

I dont quite understand your argument. If we are often ahead on the flop, and both UTG and SB will have loads of outs, dont we want to protect our hand straight away?

I figure since the average SB ot UTG would have raised most hands with an ace PF, we are ahead on the flop most of the time, but very wounderable.

Therefore I would generally raise the flop trying to make UTG fold.

Re: 5/10 i hate unraised pots
 

Am i the only one that folds here? Against certain opponents i will raise or call, but against two unknowns (including a likely crappy UTG limper), i think i fold.

Re: 5/10 i hate unraised pots
 

I like raising the flop. There is a chance your hand is best, and also a chance the raise will buy you a free card.

Re: 5/10 i hate unraised pots
 

FWIW, I also fold flop.

Re: 5/10 i hate unraised pots
 

[ QUOTE ]
no reads

utg limps, sb limps, i check red 5s in bb

flop is Ad4d2x, sb leads, i raise?

[/ QUOTE ]

I raise the flop as well. If UTG cold calls 2 bets and/or SB 3-bets, I check/fold UI on the turn. If UTG folds and SB calls and checks to me on the turn, I bet the turn and take a free showdown UI on the river.

It's very likely no one had an ace. The UTG likely has 2 overcards to your 55 and with 2 diamonds on the board you want him to fold or draw at -EV.

If you're behind, you've got 3 outs to what is almost certainly the nut straight, 1 out to a straight that puts a 3-flush out, and 2 outs to trips which, despite the 4 straight, would be strong.

Re: 5/10 i hate unraised pots
 

[ QUOTE ]
I dont quite understand your argument. If we are often ahead on the flop, and both UTG and SB will have loads of outs, dont we want to protect our hand straight away?

I figure since the average SB ot UTG would have raised most hands with an ace PF, we are ahead on the flop most of the time, but very wounderable.

Therefore I would generally raise the flop trying to make UTG fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think you're often way ahead on the flop. I think you're rarely way ahead on the flop (please see the two situations I presented in my first post). But you still have lots of ways of improving. So why not protect it? Because the pot is really small. You don't need to raise to protect your hand. A call is enough. UTG isn't going to call here unless he has a healthy draw or a made hand. If his hand is made, he won't fold to a raise.* If he's on a good draw (say...two overs and a flush draw), he's still correct to call getting 6:2. And you may get 3-bet. Now you've built a big pot, you're sandwiched, you have a hand that almost certainly needs to improve to win, and you have very few outs.

It's true that a raise will force out an UTG who has two overs. But two overs are not nearly enough to call getting 5:1, and he's not likely to call with just overs since there's an ace on board. It's also true that a raise may buy you a free turn. But given the bad side of the raise (getting 3-bet, getting cold-called, or getting bet into again on the turn), I prefer calling.

Yes, your hand is vulnerable. But w.r.t. protecting your hand, a raise won't do anything that a call wouldn't do. They both serve to protect your hand in this very small pot.

I also disagree that most UTG players will preflop raise with any ace. Many of them will limp.

*The only exception is that he'll likely fold an overpair to your fives, but there are very few overpairs with which a typical UTG will limp. Maybe 66 and 77.

Re: 5/10 i hate unraised pots
 

fold