1/2 PS LO8 hand - is this hand played properly?
 

This game has been very loose and seeing lots of flops, nice sized pots, strange plays, etc.

PokerStars 1/2 Omaha/8 (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is CO with 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. UTG posts a blind of $1.
UTG (poster) checks, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, Hero calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB completes, BB checks.

The only reason I called with this hand (I know its easy to be trapped with it) was my reads on the table, and I liked my position. For me, its easy to get away from if I don't hit it well.

Flop: (6 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, MP2 checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 bets</font>, Hero calls, SB folds, BB calls, UTG folds, MP2 folds.

Turn: (4.50 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB 3-bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 caps</font>, Hero calls, BB calls.

River: (16.50 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, MP3 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB 3-bets</font>, MP3 calls, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 25.50 BB

Should I still have mucked 6-5-4-3 in the cutoff? Should I have just called the turn when I made the full house, or is my raise ok since I could now pick up the entire pot w/ an A on the river?

Results will be posted later.

Re: 1/2 PS LO8 hand - is this hand played properly?
 

[ QUOTE ]
The only reason I called with this hand (I know its easy to be trapped with it) was my reads on the table, and I liked my position. For me, its easy to get away from if I don't hit it well.

[/ QUOTE ]

Even given all that, I still fold PF.

I probably cap the river, and try to get an extra bet out of
MP3. The only hands that beat you for high are 6Txx and TTxx, neither of which are likely.

Apart from the PF call, it seems ok.

Re: 1/2 PS LO8 hand - is this hand played properly?
 

fold preflop, its not close at all. look what happened. you flopped a crappy straight on a made-low board and met a turn card you didn't like, but showed down hoping to take 1/2 of a 3-way pot, maybe. not good.

Re: 1/2 PS LO8 hand - is this hand played properly?
 

agree with previous posters, an absolute fold preflop, without any exception to certain conditions whatsoever

Re: 1/2 PS LO8 hand - is this hand played properly?
 

If you are going to play this hand, based on the rationale you posted, than raise the damn flop, dude. You've got to take a shot at getting rid of anyone that can out-draw you (and by the way, those efforts at 1/2 likely will not be successful). Which is why you don't play this hand.

Re: 1/2 PS LO8 hand - is this hand played properly?
 

:grunching..:

Definately fold preflop. You have no real low hand and as a result you'll most always be playing for half of the pot. One of the things I've been trying to focus on is trying to play hands that have good scooping potential. In this case, the only way you can scoop is if in the end the board shows A25, A23, A24, etc.

Flop:
One of the best flops you can make, besides the flush possibility. However, it's still very likely you're playing for half the pot. Good call on the flop.

Turn:
I like the raise what is most likely the nuts with a freeroll to the nut low. I don't see this ever being a bad play.

River:
BB bets out unexpectedly. I'm not sure if a raise here is a good play as there aren't many hands that would donkbet here that you beat, especially with all of the turn action. I hope you didn't get surprised by 6T or TT and got scooped. Any comments on my line?

-Boolean

Re: 1/2 PS LO8 hand - is this hand played properly?
 

about 90% of the time I fold this hand (the 10% of the time I do play its either in these conditions or in the blinds) but I felt conditions were ideal, and I would stand to win a nice pot if I hit the right flop. I do not chase bottom ends of straights or third lows, so my rationale will only cost me 1 small bet to try and hit an optimal flop.

Note to Boolean: the BB three-bet the turn, then MP capped it, leading me to believe the BB also had an A-4 low.

After I called the threebet on the river, the BB showed down A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] for top full house, and the MP2 had A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. I was three-bet by a player drawing to 2 outs, and he hit one of 'em on the river. On the flipside, I had two outs to a scoop, and the other 90% of the time I win 1/2 of a nice pot.

Thanks for your input.

Re: 1/2 PS LO8 hand - is this hand played properly?
 

[ QUOTE ]
...you flopped a crappy straight on a made-low board and met a turn card you didn't like, but showed down hoping to take 1/2 of a 3-way pot, maybe. not good.

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Actually, the turn card improved my hand to a full house, which increased my liking of the hand, and giving me a freeroll at the nut low.

Re: 1/2 PS LO8 hand - is this hand played properly?
 

Raise the flop to put pressure on a non-nut diamond draw or an A-5 low.

Re: 1/2 PS LO8 hand - is this hand played properly?
 

This might sound crazy (ok it will) but does anyone fold this to the 3-bet and cap Hero has to call on the turn? There's no realistic good card that came come besides a 3. It is almost certain one of your opponents has a 6, and a 2 or 4 could easily make someone quads. Any card higher than a 6 can give one of your opponents an overfull or a higher 6s full. Plus someone is in there with the nut low, so you need to catch an ace to get any piece of that as well. See the crap you got into playing this preflop? Complete it in the SB, call a single raise with it from the BB, steal with it in LP in a tight game, muck every other time.

Re: 1/2 PS LO8 hand - is this hand played properly?
 

It'd be easy to think this, but given the situation I was the victim of an absolute donkstrike. It was not uncommon for players to be raising/three-betting their lows in this game. I was the only player w/ a six in the hand, and the only way I could've lost the entire pot was for one of two tens to hit on the river. The BB was literally giving his money to me and the other player w/ the nut low by threebetting the turn, but was rescued by the river. I can not see laying this hand down on the turn - no matter what hand someone else may have w/ a six in his hand, he is a dog to make a better full house no matter how you slice it. Assuming his side cards do not include a 4 or 5, he has 9 outs to a better boat, and 2 to 5 if he has an overpair and an overcard w/ his six. I'd never fold in that spot - raising and calling the cap is absolutely +EV.

If I could've seen him having TT in his hand, i'd have called the river obviously [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: 1/2 PS LO8 hand - is this hand played properly?
 

Preflop:

Fold. This is an awful hand, in every position. The only time I'll play this hand is if its 3 handed, and then Ill raise with it.

Flop:

If you are going to call preflop, you have to raise here. You have a lot of equity, and this is a great spot to make the other playrs call two bets cold (incorrectly) with their draws. This is a dream flop, if you arent going to raise here, I take it you would never raise a flop with 3456?

Turn:

Standard.

River:

I raise his bet 80% of the time and flat call the other 20%. BTW, you have to call the 3-bet, anyone who doesnt is a moron. There is too much in the pot to consider folding.

Re: 1/2 PS LO8 hand - is this hand played properly?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Flop:

If you are going to call preflop, you have to raise here. You have a lot of equity, and this is a great spot to make the other playrs call two bets cold (incorrectly) with their draws. This is a dream flop, if you arent going to raise here, I take it you would never raise a flop with 3456?


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The reason I did not raise was the board was very draw-heavy and my hand is vulnerable to a few specific cards. If the flush card comes on the turn, chances are I am folding on the turn, so why raise the flop, get involved, only to see my hand clearly beaten if I dime rolls off on the turn. Considering this, calling and waiting until the expensive street to raise is the right play. If a safe card comes (and it did - it gave me top boat), then I can come into action on the turn.

Regarding equity on the flop, according to cardplayer.com's omaha odds calculator, my hand has 34% equity on this flop, while A-9-4-2 has 48.9% and A-K-T-T (who has the flush draw) has 16.8% equity. I wouldn't call 34% equity high in a three-way pot - its about break-even. Thats just how I play though - i'd rather make 'em pay on the expensive street (in this case my equity jumps to 50% on the turn, while A-9-4-2 has 47.2% and A-K-T-T has 2.8%)

Obviously, if it was a rainbow flop, of course i'd have raised the flop - I would want to get the backdoor flush draws and other such weak draws to fold. In Omaha, rarely do you raise the nut straight on the flop when the board is two-suited. Why get heavily involved in a hand on the flop if the turn card may cause you to be drawing to four outs and having to call many bets?

Re: 1/2 PS LO8 hand - is this hand played properly?
 

While your rationale is not crazy, it is the "poster child" for why to never play 3-4-5-6 in a full ring game. Look at what you're saying. You hit almost an ideal flop, yet you feel that you've still got a lot of work to do and don't feel comfortable raising the flop. Why play the hand then? To hope for 2-5-6 rainbow? So then you can still play for half? I don't get it, even with your stated table reads. Good luck though, I hope it works out for you.

Re: 1/2 PS LO8 hand - is this hand played properly?
 

I play this type of hand a lot, so I don't see preflop as a bad call. The only mistake I see is not raising the flop. You flopped a vulnerable nut str8, and notice that BB got to stay in for one SB? If your going to play a mediocre hand, you have to jam the pot when it hits. What were your thoughts for just calling? BB may not have folded, but when players make mistakes like that, make their mistakes expensive.

Re: 1/2 PS LO8 hand - is this hand played properly?
 

[ QUOTE ]
You hit almost an ideal flop, yet you feel that you've still got a lot of work to do and don't feel comfortable raising the flop.

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It has nothing to do with comfort - I know the odds are against the nut straight being the nuts by the river when the flop is two-suited. I almost never raise the nut straight on a two-suited board on the flop. I wait for the turn to throw a nice card at me and then I get aggressive. I've found this increases my winrate significantly (haven't had a losing month since March of this year), which is hanging in the 4.5 BB/hr. range.

Re: 1/2 PS LO8 hand - is this hand played properly?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I play this type of hand a lot, so I don't see preflop as a bad call.

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I think playing this hand PF is a leak.

Re: 1/2 PS LO8 hand - is this hand played properly?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I play this type of hand a lot, so I don't see preflop as a bad call.

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I think playing this hand PF is a leak.

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I respectfully disagree. With three cards to the wheel, I believe you should enter almost every unraised pot when you have position. (Speaking LO8 here) Hero had this scenario. This also has the advantage of disguising your 'A2 and better' limps. Obviously, if the table is tight you may want to be cautious, but here Hero had the odds.

This can turn into a leak if you can't play post-flop and chase the wrong end of the str8 or low flushes too far.

Re: 1/2 PS LO8 hand - is this hand played properly?
 

[ QUOTE ]
The reason I did not raise was the board was very draw-heavy and my hand is vulnerable to a few specific cards

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This is your dream flop. If your hand is vunerable and you dont feel like raising, then give me a flop where this isnt the case. Anytime you enter a pot with 3456 and manage to hit, the board will be draw heavy and you will be playing for 1/2 the pot. I dont know, maybe you like getting yourself in terrible situations with hands that are absolute crap.

Your hand selecton in LO8 should consist of hands that can become the nuts or close to it. 3456s can make a baby flush, a weak low, a vunerable straight, or just two pair. This might be fine in a 3 or 4 handed game, but not here.

Re: 1/2 PS LO8 hand - is this hand played properly?
 

J.Copperthite:I'm not sure why you posted this hand.If you did it to try to improve your game,take a moment to think about what they're telling you about the need to raise this flop. Good luck to you. Ben

Re: 1/2 PS LO8 hand - is this hand played properly?
 

Not much to be said here. You know you made a questionable preflop call, got trapped, then got sniped. Your play was fine on every street, just got an awful river. But as we all know that's omaha.

JMO - Knoll