AQs -- a standard 3/6 hand?
 

MP2 is not a standard 3/6 player at all, but I was happy to have him at the table. He's 74/0/0.3 after 81 hands and -- so far, anyway -- he'd been very predictable. If he bets, you better have something! I don't recall any checkraises from him.

I could give you numbers for BB, but, to be honest, the only real read I had on him at the time is that he seemed kind of tight.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB 3-bets</font>, MP2 calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (9.33 SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, MP2 calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (6.16 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, MP2 checks, Hero checks.

River: (6.16 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets . . .</font>

Okay, let's stop here. What do I do now?

Re: AQs -- a standard 3/6 hand?
 

Clear raise.

Re: AQs -- a standard 3/6 hand?
 

I'd raise. Don't worry about getting an overcall from BB. If the MP 3-bets you, I'd consider capping because you won't have to face a 5-bet. The nut flush is a pretty good hand. If he stuck around with 55, god bless him. If he slowplayed KT, god bless him again. Otherwise, you're good.

Re: AQs -- a standard 3/6 hand?
 

All right, I'm impatient sometimes. And I did raise. So let's get to the part of the hand that most interests me:

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB 3-bets</font>, MP2 calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (9.33 SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, MP2 calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (6.16 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, MP2 checks, Hero checks.

River: (6.16 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB 3-bets</font>,
<font color="#CC3333">MP2 caps . . .</font>

Now what do I do?

Re: AQs -- a standard 3/6 hand?
 

[ QUOTE ]
All right, I'm impatient sometimes. And I did raise. So let's get to the part of the hand that most interests me:

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB 3-bets</font>, MP2 calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (9.33 SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, MP2 calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (6.16 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, MP2 checks, Hero checks.

River: (6.16 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB 3-bets</font>,
<font color="#CC3333">MP2 caps . . .</font>

Now what do I do?

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi,

I put the BB on a really weirdly played KK. I can't see what MP2 has other than Kx [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] or perhaps a badly played set or T.

I don't think you are ahead enough here to make this call. If MP2 folded instead of capping its an easy call.

Re: AQs -- a standard 3/6 hand?
 

Raise river.
But I would have bet turn when they checked it, you might win the pot right there. If not you have outs to your flushdraw. If its a check/raise on turn I´d fold, someone made a house. But I´d fold on flop actually.
(edit: this was for the first post)
On your second post, fold river.

Re: AQs -- a standard 3/6 hand?
 

I don't agree. The pot is big and the Hero cannot be 100% certain that he is beat. An extra bet at this point is worth the payoff that he may have the best hand. You only need to be best less than 10% for this to pay off at this point. I'd call to make him show his cards.

I agree with the anlysis, KK on the BB and Kx [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] on the MP-player. Perhaps TT on BB, but it seems a bit too agressive for that.

Re: AQs -- a standard 3/6 hand?
 

You have nut flush. You are probably beaten but due to big pot you should still call.

If BB calls you got 8-1 odds. I think you win this kind of hand more than 13 % of the time.

Re: AQs -- a standard 3/6 hand?
 

RAISE! all day everyday.

Re: AQs -- a standard 3/6 hand?
 

But really.. fold flop. You have nothing to do in the pot.

Re: AQs -- a standard 3/6 hand?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't agree. The pot is big and the Hero cannot be 100% certain that he is beat. An extra bet at this point is worth the payoff that he may have the best hand. You only need to be best less than 10% for this to pay off at this point. I'd call to make him show his cards.

[/ QUOTE ]

The BB is clearly going to call. So there will be 17 BB's at the end. Hero has to call 2.

He has to be best more often than 10% here and not less. To me that river action screams full house for one of those players.

Re: AQs -- a standard 3/6 hand?
 

Calling flop is correct play, folding is a mistake

Gut shot straight(4 outs), overcard(3 outs) and backdoor flush draw combined make flop call profitable. Pot odds are 10-1.

Re: AQs -- a standard 3/6 hand?
 

7.5:1 with nut flush and a paired board. I see odd [censored] all the time but this is crazy. say BB has KK he hits his FH on the turn and sees it checked through on the turn and river? I dunno. So crazy. Alright, you need to be right about 12, 13%. Not just that but you have to beat 2 people that % of the time. I think someone hit there backdoor flush with you but I really think your toast. This may be awful saying this but I could find a fold here. In the middle of multitabling and all that, I would just click call and be done with it. I also think BB having TT is a distinct possiblity too

Re: AQs -- a standard 3/6 hand?
 

[ QUOTE ]
But really.. fold flop. You have nothing to do in the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]
No

Re: AQs -- a standard 3/6 hand?
 

[ QUOTE ]
The BB is clearly going to call. So there will be 17 BB's at the end. Hero has to call 2.

He has to be best more often than 10% here and not less. To me that river action screams full house for one of those players.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, I did the math wrong too, always forget the people you know are going to call, Thanks. BB has the FH or quads if anyone, other guy hit the bd flush with you.

Re: AQs -- a standard 3/6 hand?
 

It got 3-betted preflop, normally when people do that they have AA KK QQ JJ AK TT, flop comes KT7, you have 4 outs to a gutshot and thats more or less all you got. Even if you hit your gutshot you will lose sometimes to a full house. I think its an easy fold.

Re: AQs -- a standard 3/6 hand?
 

</font><blockquote><font class="small">En réponse à:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font class="small">En réponse à:</font><hr />
I don't agree. The pot is big and the Hero cannot be 100% certain that he is beat. An extra bet at this point is worth the payoff that he may have the best hand. You only need to be best less than 10% for this to pay off at this point. I'd call to make him show his cards.

[/ QUOTE ]

The BB is clearly going to call. So there will be 17 BB's at the end. Hero has to call 2.

He has to be best more often than 10% here and not less. To me that river action screams full house for one of those players.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are only gonna be 16BB on the end. BB is putting in 4, MP2 is putting in 4, and you've already put in 2. Add that to the original 6.16, and that's a 16.16BB pot assuming nothing else is taken out for rake.

I really can't see you winning this hand enough to call the river. Do you think a "74/0/0.3 after 81 hands and -- so far, anyway -- he'd been very predictable" kind of player caps a check-3bet with the non-nut flush on a paired board?

I think we're in really bad shape here, and need to fold.

Re: AQs -- a standard 3/6 hand?
 

Even if do not count overcard, 4 outs to a gutshot and backdoor flush draw make 10-1 flop call profitable due to implied odds.

Re: AQs -- a standard 3/6 hand?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Even if do not count overcard, 4 outs to a gutshot and backdoor flush draw make 10-1 flop call profitable due to implied odds.

[/ QUOTE ]

Adjusting odds like that, you can make any call profitable. Even with implied odds, it would be a marginal call. Include reverse implied odds and you are toast.

Re: AQs -- a standard 3/6 hand?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Even if do not count overcard, 4 outs to a gutshot and backdoor flush draw make 10-1 flop call profitable due to implied odds.

[/ QUOTE ]

Adjusting odds like that, you can make any call profitable. Even with implied odds, it would be a marginal call. Include reverse implied odds and you are toast.

[/ QUOTE ]

In my opinion, if you and Evigt want to fold on the flop, getting 11:1 closing the action, and you're saying that without letting the river action influence you, then you give up too easily with a decent draw.

Re: AQs -- a standard 3/6 hand?
 

Nick - got a verdict on the outcome? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Re: AQs -- a standard 3/6 hand?
 

[ QUOTE ]
But really.. fold flop. You have nothing to do in the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Folding the flop is a crime against humanity.

Re: AQs -- a standard 3/6 hand?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Nick - got a verdict on the outcome? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Right now, I need to go to sleep.

But I will give the results when I wake up.

Re: AQs -- a standard 3/6 hand?
 

[ QUOTE ]
It got 3-betted preflop, normally when people do that they have AA KK QQ JJ AK TT, flop comes KT7, you have 4 outs to a gutshot and thats more or less all you got. Even if you hit your gutshot you will lose sometimes to a full house. I think its an easy fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Folding this flop is terrible getting 11.3:1.

Rob

Re: AQs -- a standard 3/6 hand?
 

I don't care how passive he is, I'm still raising him. I think he's have folded 55 by now, and you probably would have heard from KT on the turn. He probably has KXh. If he 3-bets, call and cry, but I like a raise here.

Re: AQs -- a standard 3/6 hand?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Now what do I do?

[/ QUOTE ]

Cry.

Re: AQs -- a standard 3/6 hand?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Even if do not count overcard, 4 outs to a gutshot and backdoor flush draw make 10-1 flop call profitable due to implied odds.

[/ QUOTE ]

Adjusting odds like that, you can make any call profitable. Even with implied odds, it would be a marginal call. Include reverse implied odds and you are toast.

[/ QUOTE ]


You're very, very wrong. You're getting 11.33:1 here. You only need 10.5:1 with 0 IO on the GS. The GS is to the nuts here. Plus u have a bd nutter. You're getting enough to call simply from ur effective 5.5 outs (completely eliminating A/Q outs). You can't assume somebody already has a set and u have some RIO if he catches fills up. If anything u lose a very small portion of your outs. So, I'll grant that u could have as few as 5 outs which is still more than enough to call. Also, your IO are higher than normal when facing a 3-bet PF and completing a broadway straight.

Re: AQs -- a standard 3/6 hand?
 

i could see folding if someone was left to act behind you but you're closing the action here. spike a jack on the turn and they only have one card left to fill up (10 outs, max), and you're raking it in.

Re: AQs -- a standard 3/6 hand?
 

I'd call. Your good here often enough getting 8:1

Re: AQs -- a standard 3/6 hand?
 

I'd cry and fold. Saving 2BBs is nice. Do it here, because you're not good 12% of the time. This is almost always a better hand than the nut flush. By somebody. TT, 55, KK, and KT are all possibilities, and your opponents would be playing badly to hold them, but I think you're pretty dead here.

Re: AQs -- a standard 3/6 hand?
 

Id still call. I dont give too much credit to ppl whos 74 %vpip. Ive seen some strange caps by ppl like that before. If he plays that poorly preflop he might play very poorly postflop aswell. I think there is atleast a small chance that he is betting something like a smaller flush or trip tens.

Re: AQs -- a standard 3/6 hand?
 

Would anyone bet the turn?
(and under what conditions)

Re: AQs -- a standard 3/6 hand?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Would anyone bet the turn?
(and under what conditions)

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I did just pick up a lot of potential outs.

When BB checked the turn, I guess maybe I should have been thinking he just had QQ/JJ/AQs or something and started wondering if I could push him off of QQ/JJ (or a lower pocket pair) if that's what he had.

What I was thinking instead was, "Whatever." It wasn't until he checked again on the river that I decided he probably didn't have much.

Anyway, another consideration in this particular hand is that there was hardly any chance of getting MP2 to fold on the turn. If he liked his hand enough to see the turn, he was going to take his hand to the river, unless the action got really heavy. And if his hand had any showdown value at all, I didn't think he'd fold on the river, either.

Results and thoughts
 

It took me about ten seconds to decide, but I folded.

Here's the whole hand:

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB 3-bets</font>, MP2 calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (9.33 SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, MP2 calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (6.16 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, MP2 checks, Hero checks.

River: (6.16 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB 3-bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 caps</font>, Hero folds, BB calls.

Final Pot: 16.16 BB

Results:
BB has Kd Kh (full house, kings full of tens).
MP2 has Tc Kc (full house, tens full of kings).
Outcome: BB wins 16.16 BB.

MP2 is much more passive than most 3/6 players, but in a trappy game like Party 3/6, I don't think BB's turn play is unusual at all. (And his numbers for the 110 hands I now have on him are 20/15/3.4.) The river check, on the other hand, did show a lot of patience.

Anyway, if he and MP2 had played faster on the turn, things could have gotten pretty uncomfortable for me on that street. I probably would have called two, figuring BB quite likely just had two pair, and MP2 probably just made trips, and then I would have really hated it when it came back two more to me and I had to decide in the now much bigger pot if I was in fact drawing dead with my flush draw and gutshot.

Anyway, the river fold did save me 2 BB's, like Private Joker mentioned, but it was a little risky, as if I had been wrong, I might have thrown up on my computer.

Thanks for the responses.

Re: AQs -- a standard 3/6 hand?
 

sorry if i'm being gay but i was thinking:
seeing as the board is paired (your draw weakened and your pot equity possibly 0), you probably need a decent chance of both players folding for a turn bet to be correct (please shoot me down);

for their to be a "decent" chance of both folding there needs to be a "good" chance of A folding and a "good" chance of B folding (speaking roughly cos you aint got much time at the table);

if
1)tight player's turn check strongly implies he has JJ or QQ and can be pushed off it

2)loose player folds lots on turn

then i reckon bet, so long as (3)you don't fear the check raise too much;
otherwise check

so...am i rubbish?

Re: AQs -- a standard 3/6 hand?
 

o yeah, and if you're thinking about semibluffing what stats from PT do people use?

what about folds% / (folds% + call%) on the particular street as the rough guide?

Re: AQs -- a standard 3/6 hand?
 

[ QUOTE ]
sorry if i'm being gay but i was thinking:
seeing as the board is paired (your draw weakened and your pot equity possibly 0), you probably need a decent chance of both players folding for a turn bet to be correct (please shoot me down);

for their to be a "decent" chance of both folding there needs to be a "good" chance of A folding and a "good" chance of B folding (speaking roughly cos you aint got much time at the table);

if
1)tight player's turn check strongly implies he has JJ or QQ and can be pushed off it

2)loose player folds lots on turn

then i reckon bet, so long as (3)you don't fear the check raise too much;
otherwise check

so...am i rubbish?

[/ QUOTE ]

A few thoughts:

Although the board did pair on the turn, making it possible I'm drawing dead, I do now also have a four-flush, so my draw quite likely became stronger instead of weaker. I do think a turn semi-bluff is something to consider.

However, even though 3/6 players will lay down a hand, I wasn't very confident about getting BB to dump QQ/JJ. I hadn't really shown that much strength during the hand, and I think 3/6 players do get a bit attached to their premium pairs. I think the chances of getting him to drop 99/88 are pretty good, though.

MP2 was going to call, but I wouldn't mind getting heads-up with him, as he could just have 86o (for a gutshot) or something. Still, he could also have me beat with 22 or 75s. It was pretty hard to put him on any sort of a specific hand.

As for concerns about a checkraise, BB's turn check made me suspicious, and I was worried he was lining up a raise.

Re: AQs -- a standard 3/6 hand?
 

Nice hand, it was a perfect river fold, no regrets (even if they did show down worse hands, you aren't good the 10% or whatever you need to be with this action), and be thankful those two idiots both decided to slowplay the flop and especially the turn.