Re: $109s - Ok This Ones More Interesting
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
As for why you bet a jack...it's a J94 board. The SB has nothing. The CO limped and apparently you don't put him on aces. Who wants to give free cards here? Anyone?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll give a free card on that board if my opponent has a penchant for firing on the turn after a checked flop.

Yugoslav

[/ QUOTE ]


I slept well, but when I woke up this still bugged me. Now all I can put villain on is one or two J's. Damit.

Why would he check the flop with a J? Because villain was Yugo (a solid multitabler I assume [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img])

Re: $109s - Ok This Ones More Interesting
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why are you guys all focused on what he has? Frankly, I have no idea what he had. Not a J and not a flush, and that's pretty much all I need to know there.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL - maybe it isn't what you know what he doesn't have, as much as it is, what he knows what you don't have. 2 cents. Worth just that.

Re: $109s - Ok This Ones More Interesting
 

You're absolutely right Chuck. Every good bluff has to actually look like the hand you're represeting. When I bet the turn the guy is probably like, forget that, he doesn't have the Jack. When I bet the river for 600 when the flush hits (leaving 120 behind - which I don't know whether I like or not - heh) most people are going to give you credit for one or the other.

BL's point is huge BTW, but he missed the most important part by far. Villains are happy to look you up with a stack if it costs them a couple hundred chips. But, if you do anything to jeopordize their ability to ITM, they become a lot more hesitant to make the tough calls. There's definitely a sweet spot though. If VIllain and I both have 720 on the river, I don't think this works. He'll look at his stack and go, f*ck, I'm out of it anyway, lets look him up. If he has 3k chips, he'll look me up too. In this exact situation, looking me up and losing leaves him at sub 1k chips. Just folding leaves him with 1600. This is a VERY important point, IMO, as it has a rather large impact on FE after the flop.

Re: $109s - Ok This Ones More Interesting
 

[ QUOTE ]
You're absolutely right Chuck. Every good bluff has to actually look like the hand you're represeting. When I bet the turn the guy is probably like, forget that, he doesn't have the Jack. When I bet the river for 600 when the flush hits (leaving 120 behind - which I don't know whether I like or not - heh) most people are going to give you credit for one or the other.

BL's point is huge BTW, but he missed the most important part by far. Villains are happy to look you up with a stack if it costs them a couple hundred chips. But, if you do anything to jeopordize their ability to ITM, they become a lot more hesitant to make the tough calls. There's definitely a sweet spot though. If VIllain and I both have 720 on the river, I don't think this works. He'll look at his stack and go, f*ck, I'm out of it anyway, lets look him up. If he has 3k chips, he'll look me up too. In this exact situation, looking me up and losing leaves him at sub 1k chips. Just folding leaves him with 1600. This is a VERY important point, IMO, as it has a rather large impact on FE after the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Unarmed, thanks for posting. I've learned quite a bit from this post - particularly the in game reads. I've been thinking about this hand more last night. There are only two hands that I think villain has here. Either a fullboat, or a middlepair. Frankly, I think you're right, it's a pair.

Furthermore, I appreciate your river bet thoughts. And very good analysis. Stack management is such an under studied part of the game....

Scuba

Re: $109s - Ok This Ones More Interesting
 

[ QUOTE ]
When I bet the river for 600 when the flush hits (leaving 120 behind - which I don't know whether I like or not - heh)

[/ QUOTE ]

This was what interested me most; the river bet for 5/6 of your remaining stack immediately made me wonder. What was your thought process here as opposed to just shoving (independent of whether, on later reflection, you liked the idea)?

Re: $109s - Ok This Ones More Interesting
 

Sometimes you just know you're beat and you have to lay it down. Poker is about everything else but the cards.

Re: $109s - Ok This Ones More Interesting
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why are you guys all focused on what he has? Frankly, I have no idea what he had. Not a J and not a flush, and that's pretty much all I need to know there.

[/ QUOTE ]But shouldn't you focus on what he thinks you had? If he's a weak tight player, knowing he doesn't have a J or club is all you need to know. But you said he was a good player, and if he had a plan when he called the turn bet, I think you need to know more. I think if you had a J or two clubs, you would have bet the flop. So if I'm villian I think you either have a giant hand like a flopped set, or you are bluffing. And in either case, why would the river card change things? Of course when I'm multi-tabling I might not follow through on this analysis either, but I'd like to think I would if I called the turn bet... From your post it sounds like your bet worked, but I still think it's very player/read dependant, and won't work against stronger players.

Re: $109s - Ok This Ones More Interesting
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why is everyone worried about the draw? Villain checked behind on the flop...

[/ QUOTE ]

Unarmed is too kind. A "solid multi-tabler" has a club draw here exactly zero percent of the time, and if you don't know that you should always either push or fold on the flop.

Irieguy

[/ QUOTE ]

He has just a flush draw 0% of the time, agreed. But he might have some combination of flush draw, middle pair, gutshot, etc. that gives him enough outs to take off a card.