Turning on the LAG gear
 

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why the hell didn't I take the plunge and start playing these months ago...

oh yeah, I only found the LAG gear last week, riiiight

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The first thing you have to do in order to beat MTT's regularly is play a solid TAG game with few if any obvious leaks for six months or a year. Maybe you can skip that if you're a poker prodigy; I guess I'm pretty good at this point, but I don't think I could've.

[As an aside, step one and a half is playing SNG's - lots and lots of SNG's. Getting to the final table is awesome, but worthless if you don't know what to do when you get there.]

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NL Texas Hold'em Trny:16566313 Level:13 Blinds (750/1500) - Friday, October 14, 01:33:38 EDT 2005
Table Super Thursday(484589) Table #3 (Real Money)
Seat 10 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: lentyai ( $11762 )
Seat 2: bulkmail ( $23142 )
<font color="red">Seat 3: Adanthar ( $29066 )
</font>
Seat 4: icrazy ( $56935 )
Seat 5: incision69 ( $17017 )
<font color="blue">Seat 6: JPaps18 ( $35918 ) </font>
Seat 7: CUZJJ ( $43016 )
Seat 8: Mellochello ( $17360 )
Seat 9: Buggsy46 ( $56083 )
Seat 10: play4food888 ( $21372 )
Trny:16566313 Level:13
Blinds (750/1500)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Adanthar [ 8c 8d ]
Adanthar raises [4000].

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So you start out playing a TAG game (maybe you're coming over from SNG's or limit, maybe you've got a solid Sklansky background and your success in other games is all based on his books, maybe you're just naturally risk averse) and you do well. In order to do *really* well, though, you need cards. Sometimes you get them, sometimes you don't, and lots of times, you get pushed off flops that might've even hit you somehow by people that play every hand...but when you have cards, you are a real threat.

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JPaps18 calls [4000].

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Somewhere in there, if you play enough, you pick up handreading. Bad LAG's, who cannot hand read, will never get anywhere. Good LAG's have a huge innate advantage over TAG's, though - they know what the TAG's have.

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** Dealing Flop ** [ Th, 6h, 4h ] (pot: 12,250)

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The problem with just reading hands as a TAG is that it isn't enough. You can put your opponent on a range of, say, AK-AQ/JJ-77, but when the flop misses you, you will often just give up. "What do I have? What does he have?"

Anyway, last week, something clicked. It's no secret that I've got an MTT style similar to Tommy Angelo's limit game, and that will always remain a key part of my game, but I needed something else. You see, in order to play like Tommy, you need two things: you must have at least half a hand, and your opponent must suspect you only have half a hand. Sometimes, you don't have either of those for a while, either.

So the step that I was missing is this: after you put the guy on a hand, pretend you are a LAG. Just for that one street is plenty.

"What does he think I have after I've been a TAG for four hours, and if I had it, what would I do?"

Adanthar is all-In.


PS: Of course, the bad news is that sometimes the LAG car crashes, you think top pair is good until it's too late and cost yourself about 14 thousand bucks. That's OK, I'll be back.

PPS: One of the drawbacks of finding a LAG gear and posting about it on an Internet forum for all to know is that your image alters. That's OK, too, but only if you know that and remember what your image is to the particular player you are against at all times. The correct play will greatly differ based on that.

PPPS: Be prepared to bubble out, like, a lot.

Oh, finally, yeah, I fully expect not to final table anything for months after this post.

Re: Turning on the LAG gear
 

Lagging correctly is all about three things.....hand reading, position and cheap pots.

Re: Turning on the LAG gear
 

Yeah, it also helps when your opponents conveniently underbet the pot into you every time they have nothing, probably because Harrington told them to.

Re: Turning on the LAG gear
 

Very nice post...

You are on a roll results and posts.... nh sir

I would like to think I am midway to three qarters of the way through the TAG phase.
However, this does not mean I have not toyed with a LAG gear of my own. Stepping it up can be real ugly, and I have found this out the hard way. I think some of my biggest successes in tourneys have come when I have brought a LAG element into my game, even if only briefly. The rewards are huge.

I hear what you are saying, bringing in this element is all about your feel for the game and that can only come with A LOT of experience.

Did you find yourself toying with LAGish long before you ever really made it an effective part of your play??

Re: Turning on the LAG gear
 

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It's no secret that I've got an MTT style similar to Tommy Angelo's limit game

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Can you please elaborate? I talked with Tommy a few months ago and I know (or at least he said) he has very tight opening standards.

Re: Turning on the LAG gear
 

I've never talked to Tommy, but he and I have a pretty similar style postflop.

For example, I'm the only person I know that's check/called three streets with trips turned quads (granted, the last one was a push).

Re: Turning on the LAG gear
 

Nice post. I'm starting to incorporate LAG play into my bubble game, and it's a lot of fun.


I'm not sure about the specific hand though. Your stack size is awkward, so you're forced to bet 2x the pot in order to make a convincing bluff. (Of course, overbetting probably makes it less likely that you get called, but I don't think that effect is significant enough to cancel out the extra chips risked.) If you had more or less chips, I'd like this play a lot more.

Mainly, I think every play is wrong always with any cards in any position against any villain with 10x BB to 20x BB.

Re: Turning on the LAG gear
 

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For example, I'm the only person I know that's check/called three streets with trips turned quads (granted, the last one was a push).

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I do this sometimes.

Re: Turning on the LAG gear
 

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Somewhere in there, if you play enough, you pick up handreading. Bad LAG's, who cannot hand read, will never get anywhere. Good LAG's have a huge innate advantage over TAG's, though - they know what the TAG's have.

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This may seem odd, but what exactly is LAG and TAG?

Re: Turning on the LAG gear
 

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Somewhere in there, if you play enough, you pick up handreading. Bad LAG's, who cannot hand read, will never get anywhere. Good LAG's have a huge innate advantage over TAG's, though - they know what the TAG's have.

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This may seem odd, but what exactly is LAG and TAG?

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LAG = loose/aggressive. A LAG plays many hands and raises/bets a lot.

TAG = tight/aggressive. A TAG plays less hands, but has a high bet/raise to check/call ratio.

Other options are loose/passive and weak/tight (which is just the way people say tight/passive).

Re: Turning on the LAG gear
 

An expert on PokerTracker says, in NL ring games, LAGs show a greater profit than TAGs. The variance is greater, of course, and risk of ruin higher, but they actually make more money on average. (This is with a database of stats that is truly mindboggling.)

Just an interesting side note.

CJ

Re: Turning on the LAG gear
 

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An expert on PokerTracker says, in NL ring games, LAGs show a greater profit than TAGs. The variance is greater, of course, and risk of ruin higher, but they actually make more money on average. (This is with a database of stats that is truly mindboggling.)

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Where did one find this expert and his mindboggling stats? Is this from posts in the PL &amp; NL forums or from talking to him personally?

Re: Turning on the LAG gear
 

It's generally true. A good LAG can certainly outgain a TAG, but even an average LAG will earn less then a good TAG. Being TAG certainly limits variance somewhat because in general they enter the hand with the best hand. LAG's accept that they might not have the best hand but are willing to play on the flop to outplay TAGs or fish. Plus LAG's tend to get good action on their good hands when people expect them to have 76s and they have KK.

Re: Turning on the LAG gear
 

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An expert on PokerTracker says, in NL ring games, LAGs show a greater profit than TAGs. The variance is greater, of course, and risk of ruin higher, but they actually make more money on average. (This is with a database of stats that is truly mindboggling.)

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Where did one find this expert and his mindboggling stats? Is this from posts in the PL &amp; NL forums or from talking to him personally?

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Who? [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

(I'm not allowed to say or I'd be killed.) You have to take some things on faith. Trust me--and him--on this one. I wouldn't have believed it, either, but a few million hands on PP proved me wrong.

CJ

Re: Turning on the LAG gear
 

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I'm not sure about the specific hand though. Your stack size is awkward, so you're forced to bet 2x the pot in order to make a convincing bluff. (Of course, overbetting probably makes it less likely that you get called, but I don't think that effect is significant enough to cancel out the extra chips risked.) If you had more or less chips, I'd like this play a lot more.

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Well, here's the fun part:

Say he has a big ace with a heart and I have exactly 1x the pot or 4x the pot in my stack: he's calling or pushing to any bet I make. The same goes for something like Jx J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. I'm probably better off check/folding.

Here, I'm representing one of two things: A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Kx or AA-QQ, no hearts. Unless he has exactly tens or A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], he cannot call this push (he might with A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Kx, but I've got odds vs. that anyway).

This play works exactly because of the stack size I have.

Re: Turning on the LAG gear
 

I remember when you yelled at me for making this exact play. Of course, it was in a SNG.

Re: Turning on the LAG gear
 

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I'm not sure about the specific hand though. Your stack size is awkward, so you're forced to bet 2x the pot in order to make a convincing bluff. (Of course, overbetting probably makes it less likely that you get called, but I don't think that effect is significant enough to cancel out the extra chips risked.) If you had more or less chips, I'd like this play a lot more.

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Well, here's the fun part:

Say he has a big ace with a heart and I have exactly 1x the pot or 4x the pot in my stack: he's calling or pushing to any bet I make. The same goes for something like Jx J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. I'm probably better off check/folding.

Here, I'm representing one of two things: A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Kx or AA-QQ, no hearts. Unless he has exactly tens or A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], he cannot call this push (he might with A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Kx, but I've got odds vs. that anyway).

This play works exactly because of the stack size I have.

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Awesome.

Re: Turning on the LAG gear
 

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It's generally true. A good LAG can certainly outgain a TAG, but even an average LAG will earn less then a good TAG. Being TAG certainly limits variance somewhat because in general they enter the hand with the best hand. LAG's accept that they might not have the best hand but are willing to play on the flop to outplay TAGs or fish. Plus LAG's tend to get good action on their good hands when people expect them to have 76s and they have KK.

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Yes and yes, plus it's very difficult to tell a true LAG from a fish. (Hint: In ring games, look for the semi-LAGs with a VP$iP of 22-26 with a nice stack.) Those of us who are 18-19 often pass up hands that win big pots, and get a lot less action on those we do play. It's really the s-LAGs that are doing the real killin'.

CJ

Re: Turning on the LAG gear
 

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I remember when you yelled at me for making this exact play. Of course, it was in a SNG.

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I'd still never make it in an SNG...people call all sorts of weird crap when they're not playing for what looks like 80 billion dollars. Heh.

Re: Turning on the LAG gear
 

I'm assuming that the stakes here are at least 30+3, right?

Re: Turning on the LAG gear
 

Super $150+12

Re: Turning on the LAG gear
 

You don't think that many party players would call here with QhQx / JhJx? Did you read villain as said "solid" LAG? I love the play, but I think there are other hands that may be calling you here depending on caliber of player. Either way, calling range is still very small.

Re: Turning on the LAG gear
 

Villain is the other, TAG, 2+2'er left in the tourney.

Re: Turning on the LAG gear
 

Perfect [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Turning on the LAG gear
 

Good LAG players don't play big pots with bad hands out of position.

PS: What is the point of your post?

PPS: SnG success doesn't translate to MTT success. . . at all.

PPPS: Hand reading?

Re: Turning on the LAG gear
 

Point of this post is it demonstrates a unique situation many players would pass up on without second thought and not realizing the situation at hand. It obviously didn't matter what hero held here as his stack size, his PF action, his image, the particular villain, and the board here open up a situation in which villain has a tiny hand range he can call with and the spot becomes very +EV. Many players would pass up on this spot, and being able to realize spots like this is a key to success.

Re: Turning on the LAG gear
 

When you are a LAG, don't you expect people to make amove on you. In this example, you are already all-in so he has all the pressure. I guess this is why you did that... On the other hand, you are risking 25k, to win 11k, I guess it's worth it?

What I would have done is bet 10k. He would have folded or raised all-in and I would have had the pressure on me, having a real thought decision to make (would have folded).

One more thing, is that a lower buy-ins (less than $50), people don't have that ability to lay down good hands. What would be the play?

One more thing, I read your two tournaments summary, that you won, congrats by the way and thanks for the info, but you don't seem to go all-in that often, you just bet hard very often on the flop. Is that hand different or is it only because of the opponent on this hand (you were conviced he would fold to this bet???)

Re: Turning on the LAG gear
 

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PPS: SnG success doesn't translate to MTT success. . . at all.


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I agree that SnGs and MTTs aren't as similar as people like to think. The argument that they improve your final table play doesn't really hold much weight because of the HUGE difference in payout structure. I guess the real benefit is in three-handed and heads up play, where the payout is exactly the same.

Re: Turning on the LAG gear
 

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and the spot becomes very +EV

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Is this was a final table, and those were the stack sizes, this play was not +EV.

Re: Turning on the LAG gear
 

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PPS: SnG success doesn't translate to MTT success. . . at all.


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I agree that SnGs and MTTs aren't as similar as people like to think. The argument that they improve your final table play doesn't really hold much weight because of the HUGE difference in payout structure. I guess the real benefit is in three-handed and heads up play, where the payout is exactly the same.

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I've got 29 final tables this year.

My finish breakdown starts with the numbers 9, 4, and 6.

edit: Yeah, this play would've been bad at a final table, for ICM-related reasons. There were about 4 tables left, though.

Re: Turning on the LAG gear
 

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I've got 29 final tables this year.

My finish breakdown starts with the numbers 9, 4, and 6.


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Cool. ..and?

Re: Turning on the LAG gear
 

I'm beginning to look for my inner LAG, and this post is a great one to get me there. (Others are ZeeJustin's pre-flop push with JTo in a WPT event, and Adanthar's shove with Q4o [Q2o?] on the bubble in his recent win.) There are times when you have to shove it all in and count on FE to put you over the top. The problem, of course, is pulling the trigger. I know I should get more aggressive, but *wimper* what if he calls?

One of the question I'm trying to figure out is the factors you are looking for when making this kind of LAGGY play. Off the top of my head:

- A scary, scary flop, as in this example. You're saying, "I've say I've got the nuts or damn close. Do you believe me?"
- On the bubble against the "I just don't want to bust with ten players left" crowd.
-Against loose or LP raisers, preferably if they've shown the ability to lay down to a push.

What other factors make you think that you can get the villain to lay down to a push with a good sized pot (to which he is not committed)?

Re: Turning on the LAG gear
 

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Cool. ..and?

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And, very few pure MTT players know how to pushbot. My edge after 6-7 handed is huge because nobody without a thousand SNG's under their belt or a bunch of 2+2 posts knows enough about shorthanded play.

The payout structure is not as important as hand values in a shorthanded game with comparatively short stacks.

Re: Turning on the LAG gear
 

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I remember when you yelled at me for making this exact play. Of course, it was in a SNG.

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I'd still never make it in an SNG...people call all sorts of weird crap when they're not playing for what looks like 80 billion dollars. Heh.

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I agree. I just thought it was funny.

Re: Turning on the LAG gear
 

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And, very few pure MTT players know how to pushbot. My edge after 6-7 handed is huge because nobody without a thousand SNG's under their belt or a bunch of 2+2 posts knows enough about shorthanded play.

The payout structure is not as important as hand values in a shorthanded game with comparatively short stacks.

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I couldn't agree more I always feel like I have an advantage on final tables when the stacks get short relative to the blinds because of the thousands of SnG's I played and the experience I have dealing with those situations. I know I can wield a 8-20BB stack in a payout situation better than anyone who doesn't have alot of SnG experience.

Re: Turning on the LAG gear
 

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I've got 29 final tables this year.

My finish breakdown starts with the numbers 9, 4, and 6.



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*whap*

vnh

CJ

Re: Turning on the LAG gear
 

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I've got 29 final tables this year.

My finish breakdown starts with the numbers 9, 4, and 6.



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Just so I have a goal, how many tournaments are we talking about here? 50-60?

Nice.

Re: Turning on the LAG gear
 

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I've got 29 final tables this year.

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Yeah, but how many of those aren't Happy Hour [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: Turning on the LAG gear
 

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Just so I have a goal, how many tournaments are we talking about here? 50-60?

Nice.

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[img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] With all due respect to Adanthar, and he's definitely a good player, I don't know if there's anyone out there - period - who could make a final table in half of the tourneys they entered. And there's a huge difference between a final table in a field of 100 and a final table in a field of 1,000. If you're playing a bunch of 1,000 person small buy-in MTTs I'd think you'd be a star making the final table 1 out of 30 or 40 times. If you could make it 1 out of 50 times you'd be doing well. Just do the math for the average player (1 out of 100 make the final table in a field of 1,000) and go from there.

Re: Turning on the LAG gear
 

hahahah

Yeah, 1 out of 2 is...umm...unrealistic. I just added my stats up again and those are from about 300 MTT's since the year started, but a bunch of them are 100 person fields. I didn't even play enough 500+ fields to keep track (that's gonna change right now, though.)