OK, these are the hands that may be costing me an extra 2BBs each time
 

Party Poker 20/40 Hold'em (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, CO calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>.

Flop: (5.50 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.75 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO 3bets,</font> Hero's standard line is to call down now.

Re: OK, these are the hands that may be costing me an extra 2BBs each time
 

Stats on CO?

I'd 3-bet the flop. What you do based on what he does with your 3-bet is dependant on how he's playing, his stats, etc.

Nick

Re: OK, these are the hands that may be costing me an extra 2BBs each
 

You know, I'd rather not talk about the specific hand, but the situation. What do should I be doing when I get 3bet on the turn with TPTK or other such hands. I'm not worried about the hyper-agros whom I'll be calling down, but what about unknowns, donks, and respectables? What should I be doing?

Re: OK, these are the hands that may be costing me an extra 2BBs each
 

I really hate this spot, and it seems the last few times i've done the flatcall/checkraise line with TPTK I get 3bet. Because of this I've been more likely to just keep jamming on the flop with teh TPGK. Unknown players 3betting the turn after we've smoothcall/checkraised...one pair is rarely good. I think you might seen enough of the free showdown 3bet to call the turn and fold the river but i don't know. I too feel like this is a spot where my hand is almost never good but I can't' stop myelf from calling down.

Even when I take this line in position getting 3bet sucks, i.e. get checkraised (or bet into) and smooth call then pop the turn only to get 3bet. I always feel like calling those down with one pair is spewing. Maybe the line is to just keep going on the flop, people tend to give a lot of information in their flop caps.

Re: OK, these are the hands that may be costing me an extra 2BBs each
 

I'll take a shot at this. I not really a stats guy so I'm not positive that my answer is 100% correct.

PreFlop - Standard

Flop - I'll 3bet this flop and see what he does. If you are capped I think you are behind here more than ahead, though he could also have a AQ. I think finding out how your opponent plays his TPTK in this position will help you the most. Some players will cap AQ/KQ/QJ/QT and some won't so it really depends who you're playing against. If he has a set then you are way behind.

Turn - Instead of raising I would suggest betting out. He's not going to raise you here with less than AQ if he does have it. He might even smooth call the bet fearing that you have a monster and will fear getting 3bet. Would he check-raise here again with just AQ? That's the question you need to figure out. The 3bet from him indicates that you are beat probably by a set so I would fold(two pair is very unlikely since the board looks far apart). His play doesn't scream monster until the 3bet on the Turn. Everything else looks standard.

River - Would you check or bet out in this position? I would fire again if he just calls the Turn, indicating weakness. Anyone want to comment what to do if he raises the River? I don't really know what to do here if the action goes raised. I would probably fold since I can't put him on a hand that I can beat.

Re: OK, these are the hands that may be costing me an extra 2BBs each
 

I have to agree with goofball and chief. I think a 3bet on the flop is best. Then bet/fold the turn. Villain must be super aggro to make bet/call, check/call a good choice. In my experience villain's line of raise/call, raise indicates great strength.

With the line you took: bet/call, check/raise I think your best line on the turn is check/raise/fold. Unless villain is WAY out of line you're drawing slim to dead.

So, yes, I think these hands are costing you an extra 2BB.

Just my 2 cents,
ts

Re: OK, these are the hands that may be costing me an extra 2BBs each time
 

You're hoping for only a few things in a call down: he has KQ and over-played it, he paired the 9 or 7 and picked up the flush draw/straight draw and plays these situations hard (see Jason's post), he has a lesser holding and is a complete idiot.

Having been 3-bet after you CRed and after you smooth-called the flop, I think you can get away from this hand a lot of the time if you don't have a read.

- Jim

Re: OK, these are the hands that may be costing me an extra 2BBs each
 

As you know, this situation is heavily player dependent. You need to understand what he thinks of your ability to fold on the turn. This will help you get an idea of what he can 3 bet with.

Villian will raise this flop with any pair. Some players will call the 3 bet flop and call down with any pair , many will call the 3bet flop and fold the turn or river.

If you don't 3 bet, JT will probably raise the flop, bet the turn and check the river.

I find it common for the flush draw to 3 bet the turn if he also has a pair. Top pair with the flush draw will be frequently 3 betting the turn.

Does the villian have a straight, two pair or trips enough for you to fold here? I don't think so.
Usually, the villian needs to be very tight and predictable for you to fold this turn.

BTW, if this player is too aggro, I would consider check calling down after he flop-raises. If he was too aggro, I wouldn't be comfortable checkraising the turn since he knows that his 3 bet puts you in a hard spot that will cause many tight players to make the mistake of folding. So basically, if he is a tough aggro he will folding to your checkraise and he will 3 betting light more often than we would like.

Re: OK, these are the hands that may be costing me an extra 2BBs each
 

[ QUOTE ]
You know, I'd rather not talk about the specific hand, but the situation. What do should I be doing when I get 3bet on the turn with TPTK or other such hands. I'm not worried about the hyper-agros whom I'll be calling down, but what about unknowns, donks, and respectables? What should I be doing?

[/ QUOTE ]
Cardsharp, IMO you should call down against an unknown, there is enough retarded aggression happening online where you cant release this strong of a hand even in this unfortunate situation.

You know its funny, Ive pondered this problem before awhile back. The problem being, should I call down a 3 bet on the turn if I checkraise the turn with a TPTK type hand against an unknown, or should I just avoid this confrontation all together and 3 bet the flop and lead the turn. After thinking about this situation for a while I came to a realization that made me smile inside and now I dont really worry about this sitaution anymore.

What I realized is that even if you always call down a 3 bet against an unknown and payoff with the 2nd best hand, waiting til the turn to checkraise can still be a better strategy than 3 betting the flop and leading. Heres my analysis on the situation.

When you 3 bet and lead and it works, you will win 7 small bets from your opponent using this strategy. 3sbs on the flop, 2sbs on the turn, and 2sbs on the river.(I know the villain could fold the turn or river but to keep the anaysis simple assume he calls down)

When you 3 bet the flop and it fails you will lose 8 small bets if the villain caps the flop and you call down, or you will lose 9 small bets if the villain calls the flop 3 bet and raises the turn, assuming you call down. To make things simple lets assume you lose 8.5 small bets on average when you are against a better hand.

So using the 3 bet and lead strategy, you win 7 small bets when you have the best hand and you lose 8.5 small bets when the villain has the best hand.

Now on to the call flop-checkraise turn strategy. When this works you will win 8 small bets from your opponent. 2 on the flop 4 on the turn and 2 on the river. When it fails you will lose 10 small bets.

So using the turn checkraise strategy you win 8 small bets when you have the best hand and you lose 10 small bets when the villain has the best hand.

Now lets assume that in both scenarios you run into a better hand 20% of the time and 80% of the time you have the better hand.(again to keep anaysis simple, ignore situations where either side outdraws the other)

3betting strategy yields: 7(.8) - 8.5(.2) = 3.9 small bets

Checkraise turn strategy: 8(.8) - 10(.2) = 4.4 small bets

So the checkraise turn strategy makes more money in this scenario. Does this mean you should wait to checkraise the turn every time? No, in fact most of the time you should be 3betting and leading since you are OOP, and dont want to give a free card, or becuz there are too many bad cards that can come on the turn and ruin the checkraise strategy.

The main point I was trying to make is that I wouldnt worry about calling down too much in this situation when you checkraise the turn becuz even if you call down every time against an unknown you will still make more money, than if you 3 bet the flop and lead. So anyone who always 3 bets the flop and leads becuz they dont want to face a turn 3 bet situation is giving up too much IMO.

I would also like to point out that with your hand AQ on an Q97 board, I would 3 bet and lead every time becuz given this board texture the probability that the villain may check behind on a draw is too high and there are too many bad cards that can hit the turn that would make waiting to checkraise incorrect IMO, if any T,J,8,K hits the turn checkraising may be too risky. Some examples where I will almost always use the checkraise turn strategy against an unknown is if I have AK and the flop is K73r, or A72r, or I have AQ and the flop is Q73r, in all these situations the villain is very unlikely to check behind on the turn and there are very few turn bad turn cards for us. In these situations waiting to checkraise the turn will make more money than the 3 bet lead line in the long run against an Unknown IMO.

Re: OK, these are the hands that may be costing me an extra 2BBs each
 

I think this situation is so player dependant that it's hard to have a standard line here. In general TPTK is a hand where you've got the freedom to take different lines in different spots just for the sake of being different (especially against players who you expect to be HU with frequenty over the course of a session)

I do think that 3-betting and calling down from there on on a board like this is probably best. I find that when I go for the turn c/r, sometimes the turn card gives me more FE than I want and people who would have called down with TPNK are dumping there.

Re: OK, these are the hands that may be costing me an extra 2BBs each
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think this situation is so player dependant that it's hard to have a standard line here. In general TPTK is a hand where you've got the freedom to take different lines in different spots just for the sake of being different (especially against players who you expect to be HU with frequenty over the course of a session)

I do think that 3-betting and calling down from there on on a board like this is probably best. I find that when I go for the turn c/r, sometimes the turn card gives me more FE than I want and people who would have called down with TPNK are dumping there.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with you that this situation is very player dependent. My analysis was based on being against an unknown. In this situation, I believe the texture of the board is the most important factor in deciding whether to 3 bet lead, or call and checkraise the turn. And like you, against an unknown, I am calling down here every time.

Re: OK, these are the hands that may be costing me an extra 2BBs each
 

Westley, I think that by checkraising the turn you will be forcing worse hands to fold that would have called down if you bet the turn.

I don't think that you take take much away from Westley's numerical analysis. Since the villian will be folding much more often to a turn checkraise than to a turn bet, the payoff stuctures are different. The 3.9 vs. 4.4 has too small a difference to make up for the assumptions that Westley has made.

Re: OK, these are the hands that may be costing me an extra 2BBs each
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think this situation is so player dependant that it's hard to have a standard line here. In general TPTK is a hand where you've got the freedom to take different lines in different spots just for the sake of being different (especially against players who you expect to be HU with frequenty over the course of a session)

I do think that 3-betting and calling down from there on on a board like this is probably best. I find that when I go for the turn c/r, sometimes the turn card gives me more FE than I want and people who would have called down with TPNK are dumping there.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with you that this situation is very player dependent. My analysis was based on being against an unknown. In this situation, I believe the texture of the board is the most important factor in deciding whether to 3 bet lead, or call and checkraise the turn. And like you, against an unknown, I am calling down here every time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Totally agree, assuming we're both talking about 3-betting the flop and calling down (about which I was unclear in my post).

Re: OK, these are the hands that may be costing me an extra 2BBs each
 

I Assumed that the villain would call down when trailing in both situations, and that the hero would call down in both situations when trailing, and that neither opponent would outdraw the other if theyre behind. I understand that these assumptions are not realistic, but I wanted to keep the analsis simple. The model I used to show that calling the flop and checkraising the turn can be better than 3betting the flop and leading, is very simplistic. And Im sure many of my assumptions are questionable. The message I was trying to convey is that calling the flop and checkraising the turn can still be a better strategy than 3 betting the flop and leading turn even if we assume the hero calls down that nasty turn 3 bet every time against an unknown. I think my model does a decent Job of showing this.
About the difference between 4.4sb and 3.9sb being too small to be relevant. I completely disagree with this one. Over a 1000 simluations of this situation, that would be a 250BB difference, and since many players are playing 10,000 hands or more per week, this difference is significant.

Re: OK, these are the hands that may be costing me an extra 2BBs each
 

My experience and ponderings have lead me to the flat call/chkRz line for these reasons.

1. My flop equity is generally lower than my turn equity vs. most flop 2betting hands. Many OOP hands will juice the flop correctly with draws.

2. 95% of the time I am raised on the flop (OOP), villian WILL bet the turn.

3. 3betting the flop betrays the strength of my hand, while calling is generally correct provided I have 4 outs or more, and my opponents know this. Or at least they know that, in general, I'm not folding to a raise on the flop. Players who play against me, or even assume I am a normal player, will bet the turn with nothing knowing I may fold the turn 50% of the time. If I 3bet the flop, they will get away from these nothing hands cheaply.

4. When you show strength on the turn instead of the flop, the opponent feels like he is closer to the end of the hand, and so is less likely to dump 2nd/3rd button hands.

5. If we assume that the next time I raise him, villian will go into call down mode with a 2nd best hand, the turn chk/rz gains us an extra SB.

Of course, this really doesn't have anything to do with the question in the thread. I'm not concerned or planning to change my standard line. Stop commenting on the line up to the call down or fold on the turn 3bet. Are there any more arguments for call down or for a fold?

Re: OK, these are the hands that may be costing me an extra 2BBs each
 

[ QUOTE ]
My experience and ponderings have lead me to the flat call/chkRz line for these reasons.

1. My flop equity is generally lower than my turn equity vs. most flop 2betting hands. Many OOP hands will juice the flop correctly with draws.

2. 95% of the time I am raised on the flop (OOP), villian WILL bet the turn.

3. 3betting the flop betrays the strength of my hand, while calling is generally correct provided I have 4 outs or more, and my opponents know this. Or at least they know that, in general, I'm not folding to a raise on the flop. Players who play against me, or even assume I am a normal player, will bet the turn with nothing knowing I may fold the turn 50% of the time. If I 3bet the flop, they will get away from these nothing hands cheaply.

4. When you show strength on the turn instead of the flop, the opponent feels like he is closer to the end of the hand, and so is less likely to dump 2nd/3rd button hands.

5. If we assume that the next time I raise him, villian will go into call down mode with a 2nd best hand, the turn chk/rz gains us an extra SB.

Of course, this really doesn't have anything to do with the question in the thread. I'm not concerned or planning to change my standard line. Stop commenting on the line up to the call down or fold on the turn 3bet. Are there any more arguments for call down or for a fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe the standard line when playing online, should be to call down against an unknown.

Re: OK, these are the hands that may be costing me an extra 2BBs each
 

While this is very player dependent, a lot of times I like capping with AQ on the turn. CO could be raising a weaker queen here or AQ as well, allowing you to either push him off his hand or win more money. The reason why I say CO could have a weaker queen is because many times, players will 3-bet KQ here in position and check behind you on the river if he fails to improve. It costs the same as calling you down, but can also cause you to fold a better hand.

Of course, it is possible CO does have a set. Therefore I like capping the turn and bet/folding the river or calling the turn and bet/calling the river.

Re: OK, these are the hands that may be costing me an extra 2BBs each
 

Ok, standard vs. unknown, I agree. Would you go so far as to say that you would only fold vs. an uber-passive? What about good players with reasonable stats? 17/11/1.8. Still call down? What about donks with stats like 25/8/1? Or how about 35/4/.6?

Re: OK, these are the hands that may be costing me an extra 2BBs each
 

"4. When you show strength on the turn instead of the flop, the opponent feels like he is closer to the end of the hand, and so is less likely to dump 2nd/3rd button hands."

I think this is exact opposite in this spot. I think a turn c/r makes it much easier to lay down one pair hands that would just call you down given flop action.

Re: OK, these are the hands that may be costing me an extra 2BBs each
 

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, standard vs. unknown, I agree. Would you go so far as to say that you would only fold vs. an uber-passive? What about good players with reasonable stats? 17/11/1.8. Still call down? What about donks with stats like 25/8/1? Or how about 35/4/.6?

[/ QUOTE ]
Against an Uber passive, this would be an easy fold since were probably drawing dead. Basically If I judge the villain's stats to be passive I will fold, and If I think the villain's stats are Laggish I will call down. If I have no stats on the villain or I am unable to draw a conclusion from reading the villain's stats, then I would call down.

As far as whether you should call down against a 17/11/1.8 or a 25/8/1 or a 35/4/.6, I think there are other posters that are more qualified to answer this since I am not at an expert level in analyzing someone's stats. I would love to here someone chime in on what they would do againt these 3 stat descriptions. In my opinion, all 3 of your stat descriptions look kind of passive to me which would lead me to be inclined to fold top pair if any of these guys 3 bet my turn checkraise.

For anyone else reading this, would you call down against any of these stat descriptions? or is this an easy fold against all 3 opponents?

Re: OK, these are the hands that may be costing me an extra 2BBs each
 

call down against all but the most tight-passive.U may be up against 2-pair having 5-8 outs.U may be up another AQ.U may be up against a drinker,bower,pchyco etc.Even if your call is -EV it is a small one and u can consider it an advertising money i.e helps your meta game , image buiding (tough ,no mess around)calling here might save u a lot of $$$ in the future apart from being the right thing to do in this situation

Re: OK, these are the hands that may be costing me an extra 2BBs each time
 

How bad is this player? I think some consideration to capping is in order. Biggest problem here is that you played the flop passively. I 3 bet flop most times here OOP and only hand on the flop that I would be concerned about would be 7-7.
Villian could be going for the 3 bet to check through a worse queen here. Sounds like the game is tight and I don't see a call with 10-8s preflop to be likely. He could CC with 7-7 or 6-6 (which he got frisky with on the flop). However, in that 20 game q-q and 9-9 are 3 betting preflop and as such he didn't. Other hands to consider are A-A and K-K played slowly preflop. However, with your hand containing an A I would discount this likely hood.

In the heat of battle I would be hard pressed to four bet and would probably just call down.

Re: OK, these are the hands that may be costing me an extra 2BBs each
 

Correct me if im wrong but i think to call down in this situation you would be 7.5 to 2 if you consider it to be a decision of either calling to the river or folding on the turn after the check-raise. If that is the question that Card Sharp Cook is asking then he is treating the turn just as the river and it is a question of whether he thinks he is beat or not. If he is more than 78% (7.5/9.5) sure he is beat it is my opinion that he should fold, especially being that he does not have a solid read on the CO.

Re: OK, these are the hands that may be costing me an extra 2BBs each
 

If you're unsure of what to do on the turn, spray it on the flop. A lot of times I spray the flop precisely to prevent myself from having tough turn decisions.

Re: OK, these are the hands that may be costing me an extra 2BBs each
 

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