99 with limpers.
 

2/4 holdem. (at work so no PT)

UTG limps, UTG+2 limps, I am MP1 with 99.

If there are 2 fish behind that call ANYTHING in CO and BUT is it correct to raise? I wasn't sure in this case. I called.

CO, BUT called, BB checked.

Flop comes 8c 7c 3s

UTG checks, UTG+1 bets, I raise, BB,UTG,UTG+1 call all else fold.

I figured raise here to make the draws pay more since probably they will check the turn.

Turn comes 8c 7c 3s 9c

BB, UTG, UTG+1 check, I bet. I got a set and feel I am going to get raised by the flush draw. BB check-raises, UTG, UTG+1 folds, I call.

River comes 8c 7c 3s 9c 2s

BB bets. The pots so damn big I feel like I have to call just in case this guy has 2 pair or a smaller set and decided to slowplay for whatever reason, seen it before.

I call and BB shows ..... (its a secret)

----

The debate here is with so many preflop and 3 callers someone has to have the flush draw. Check hands with outs, bet hands that have no outs on the turn. But at the same time I was surpsied BB check raised. He risked giving the free card to me. None of the players were really any good. Also preflop should I raise knowing probably I'm getting at least 1-2 more callers behind? 3-4 callers with 99 sucks. Could you fold this set on the river with all the evidence of a flush here? So how could I have played this hand better and why?

Re: 99 with limpers.
 

im always raising this preflop.. if you're sure your opponents behind you will call anything like you say.. then you're correct to raise because it adds value to when you hit a set since you're technically drawing to 2 outs (unless its a top pair situation like this is on the flop, and even then you have tons of overs to worry about).

but im playing this hand very aggressively, and knowing 2/4 players.. straightfoward play is almost foreign language to them.. im calling this guy down because the two pair scenario you brought up is very realistic.. and possibly he doesnt figure you for the flush and thinks his hand is good.

but i'd say its almost a coin flip at best if he has the flush.

Re: 99 with limpers.
 

I like the way you played that. A preflop raise will probably not thin the field too much with 2 limpers before you. I don't think preflop raising is bad at all either. It is the only debatable play in the hand. Flop raise is standard to push out overcards (KQ, KJ, etc.) and make the flush draws pay for their outs. I think you have to call the river here. With 12 BB (this right? counted quick in my head.), it seems like the pot is too big to fold top set for 1 bet. Expect him to turn over a winner, but start dancing a jig when he doesn't.

Re: 99 with limpers.
 

Raise this PF - especially if the CO/Button are going to call 2-cold. I don't understand why you think 99 sucks with 3-4 callers?!?

I think you played post-flop just fine. Obviously you're getting good odds to fill-up on the river after BB's turn C/R. When that blank hit's the river I can't see not paying off - especially since you're not overcalling AND you're closing the action.

If you're not raising this hand and other hands of similiar value in multiway pots like JTs, KQs, ATs you should start. The likelihood that you've got two loose callers and blinds that will come along behind your raise is a huge factor in making this PFR correct.

Re: 99 with limpers.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Raise this PF - especially if the CO/Button are going to call 2-cold. I don't understand why you think 99 sucks with 3-4 callers?!?

I think you played post-flop just fine. Obviously you're getting good odds to fill-up on the river after BB's turn C/R. When that blank hit's the river I can't see not paying off - especially since you're not overcalling AND you're closing the action.

If you're not raising this hand and other hands of similiar value in multiway pots like JTs, KQs, ATs you should start. The likelihood that you've got two loose callers and blinds that will come along behind your raise is a huge factor in making this PFR correct.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed, I play this the same as OP except for raising PF. Raising PF would have made this hand play out completely differently (pot size etc).

I think with the size of this pot it's hard to not call the river (turn call is easy), especially since he is unknown and can easily c/r a turned flush draw?

True

Re: 99 with limpers.
 

A lot of times my gut tells me to raise and later I regret not doing so. I am getting to the point that I hate limping into pots. I'd say 90% of the time I am raising if I enter. Mind you hands like 98s with 2 callers in LP I limp of course.

Usually the scenario is I have a hand like KJs, JTs, QJs, ATs in EP and I hate limping with them. It only invites a raise from behind. But usually there is 3-4 to the flop at 2/4. Now in a game like 10/20 online those are folds because the game is tighter and you don't want to be HU with a PF raiser with a dominated hand.

Now what if I had a hand like 88 or 77?

66 I can call because I know I will get 5 callers. But the middle pairs is where I wonder when it is right to raise. 1 limper or even 2 weak limpers with position I raise. But 2 limps with 88 or 77 in MP not sure if raising with these hands is right. 99 I can see it and I should have done it.

Re: 99 with limpers.
 

raise 88+, call 77-

This is ok?

Re: 99 with limpers.
 

If OP raised preflop, then would it be better to wait until the turn to raise?

Re: 99 with limpers.
 

I share your concern about raising 99. I am working on playing more aggressively and now consistently raise TT, but by the book, 99 and 88 are "situational" raises that it looks like you should have made. It's hard to remember that your decision to raise PF isn't based on the flush draw that develops and possibly beats you. It's based on would a raise be EV+ on that hand in your position with those players? And I think the answer there is yes. It's hard to remember that EV+ does NOT mean that you will win more often than not in a multi-way pot with that hand. I am learning that I cannot let the multi-way aspect of the hand or the fact that there are players behind scare me off of an EV+ raise. IMO, that's a weak-tight play that by raising next time in that situation we may both be growing our styles from a "rock" into a "tag."

Also, there is no way I could fold this hand short of the showdown. If I go down, I go down in flames with my set, especially if I raised PF and created an even larger pot.

Re: 99 with limpers.
 

[ QUOTE ]
A lot of times my gut tells me to raise and later I regret not doing so. I am getting to the point that I hate limping into pots. I'd say 90% of the time I am raising if I enter. Mind you hands like 98s with 2 callers in LP I limp of course.

Usually the scenario is I have a hand like KJs, JTs, QJs, ATs in EP and I hate limping with them. It only invites a raise from behind. But usually there is 3-4 to the flop at 2/4. Now in a game like 10/20 online those are folds because the game is tighter and you don't want to be HU with a PF raiser with a dominated hand.

Now what if I had a hand like 88 or 77?

66 I can call because I know I will get 5 callers. But the middle pairs is where I wonder when it is right to raise. 1 limper or even 2 weak limpers with position I raise. But 2 limps with 88 or 77 in MP not sure if raising with these hands is right. 99 I can see it and I should have done it.

[/ QUOTE ]
This post is overly tangential.

If we're talking about EP: Raise ATs (possibly KJs); limp JTs, QJs (KJs) in a loose game - toss them in a tight game.

If we're talking about the position you were in in your OP (2 limpers, you, several loose players capable of cold-calling behind you) then I raise all those hands and pairs 77/88 and above.

What bothers me about your post is you discuss not limping the KJs/ATs/etc.. hands in EP because there's only 3-4 callers at 2/4. Then you go on to say in a later paragraph that you always limp 66 because you know that you will get 5 callers. Which is it? This is confusing to say the least.