Xpost of Sklansky Thread From Philosophy Forum
 

David made the post I give in the quote box below in the Philosophy forum, but I think it is very important for the reasons I give in my response which I duplicate here as well in a reply below, and might get a bigger debate here.

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Since, in the long run, the busier these forums are, the more money I make, I couldn't let this comment from Phil153 get buried in another thread. So I repeat it here:


"The fact is that some races and cultures just aren't cut out for civilised society. They breed like rabbits and exhibit widespread features of low intelligence, poor coping skills and aggressive, anti social behaviour. Half of all murders (and much of the crime) in the U.S. are caused by a particular race, and as a minority group, I'm convinced they don't have the brain capacity to survive and contribute positively in modern civilisation. Despite many years and government efforts, the SAT scores of a certain race remain shockingly low. They are on the border of retardation. Even the elite of this race fail to excel. Compare this with any other minority and the results are clear to anyone without a bias. Asians routinely outperform whites and are disproportionately represented at elite universities, despite being a minority and in spite of poverty and limited integration into society."

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Re: Xpost of Sklansky Thread From Philosophy Forum
 

The phraseology of that poster clearly indicates racist attitudes. Nonetheless he does describe somewhat accurately many of the evident failings of black americans to prosper in their own country, a country in which many of their forbears were already living here in a state of slavery before those of many whites whose ancestors came over in colonial times (first slaves to US came to Jamestown colony aboard a Dutch slave ship).

This topic is very important to America's future though. Although many of the ills and failings of blacks to prosper in the US have to do with the legacy of racism which still continues to some degree, there are also evident defects in the dominant black culture.

So many black political leaders just ascribe everything to racism without having the courage to look inside their own coummunities for a large if not in fact majority cause of their problems. And when an influential black such as Bill Cosby does dare to make such criticisms, he is derided as little better than an Uncle Tom. Also those same black political leaders always reject such comparisons to the the Jewish and Asian minority coummunities which have thrived here so well.

The cultural defects that are most evident are young girls barely past puberty having children and having to raise those children mostly without a father around. And the drug and violence culture which is always blamed solely on poverty is also a large defect and accounts for the high proportion of black males in the 20s and 30s being incarcerated. The lessening influence of black churches has contributed to these problems. And too often when even black leaders fall prey to such problems like Marion Barry, they are partially defended by blacks who always see a racial attack, when they are the ones who need to take repsonsibility for corruption and cronyism in majority black cities and expel those leaders who are found guilty of such actions themselves.

And there is nothing to mind mind that greater exemplifies the cultural failings of the dominant black culture than the gang rap phenomenon. When you look at the contribution of black musicians to almost every genre of music from Blues to Rock, Soul to Jazz and even Country, then the true bankruptness of the so-called music that is rap is seen for what it is. And especially when it is a vehicle for promoting a gangster drug culture and one that encourages the abuse and degradation of women.

But there are two larger issues, and which are shown by those derided comparisons to other minority coummunities. The first is simply that there does not exist now in the black community an entrepreneurial business spirit and high regard for higher education. Although such comments run the risk of providing fodder for racists who like to batt around stereotypes such as "lazy N", they also need to be seen to have a kernel of truth.

The paradigm for the prosperous Asian immigrant is to come over to the US get a job and rent a bed in a shack with 10 other immigrants, and then get another job. And live cheaper than dirt and save money for a few years and start a business. And only then start a family. And once one or more families members are on this track, bring in more family members into those businesses and help others start new businesses. And then when they have children, insure they get a quality education in science or business with advanced degrees.

Part of the reason of course that blacks have not done this historically is indeed because racism limited their opportunities, but there is little reason such a paradigm cannot be adopted today.

The second issue is the black community's failure to build up themselves economically by concentration of their own resources. And it is the Jewish community which best shows this paradigm. Every Jewish friend and acquaintance I have had over the years has always to my knowledge used Jewish insurance agents, Jewish lawyers, etc. So economically they build themselves up. This is partly a stereotype as well, but it is true from what I have seen. And again as with the Asian community, a high priority is placed on education.

Yet so many racial problems in black communities have stemmed from a perception by blacks that Jewish and Korean retail store owners are "preying" on the black coummunity and offerring little in return. But the real question is, why doesn't a black man or woman own that large pawn emporium down the street or the neighborhood grocery? And why isn't the closest TV repair shop owned by a black? And why doesn't the black coummunity then support such black businesses even if it means paying a little more?

The black community needs a moral crusade (doesn't even have to be religious based) to evict and condemn the teen sex/drug & violence/rap culture that is killing their community. And they need to adopt the successful paradigms of other successful minority communities who came to these shores long after them and have prospered while their community as a whole is mired in economic deprivation.

Now I know that what I have suggested, as have others, will be challenged by the dominant blame-it-all-on-racism political position assumed by most black leaders, partly becuase they will say and have said that the black minority in the US is in fact so large that such measures cannot be adopted. But they can in fact be adopted a block and a neighborhood at a time. And it is important to America that they succeed in these things if they are willing to take on the challenges.

Anyway, that's one white man's long opinion.

Re: Xpost of Sklansky Thread From Philosophy Forum
 

very well said, I agree completely.

Re: Xpost of Sklansky Thread From Philosophy Forum
 

i agree that we need to be somewhat less pc regarding these issues if we want to get to the kernel of truth that you're talking about, but i still think from a bunch of factual evidence you've drawn incorrect conclusions.

I believe everything you've said refers to a minority that was actively oppressed in a way that jewish and asian populations weren't in America (not that they weren't terribly oppressed). A far closer parralel to the systematic underclassing of a population would be the Irish in the 1800s.

If you remove the specific pop culture references this sounds almost exactly like an editorial in Manchester England two hundred years ago would say about Irish catholics.

The fact is that the statements you make about the black community as a whole are true in terms of the condition it is now in. That however has more to do with historical oppression then inherent lack of ability. Furthermore, just like the Irish, the black community is likely quite capable in the right enviornment. (Btw Ireland a hundred years and fifty ago was seen as the most intellectually bankrupt place in the "west" and today, to a large degree, it is seen as the intellectual capital of Europe.

Both races faced hundred of years of underclassmenship, where great effort was systematically not rewarded (where hard work resulted in someone else's benifit be it protestant land owners in the south or in Ireland). This of course has an effect on a community, but i think history shows a great deal of evidence that no "race" is less inherently capable of progress. Human progress as a whole is fairly cyclical and those in power often have a tendancy to see themselves as naturally more capable, rather then the lottery winners of forces they either don't understand or can't control. This happened to the Romans and the British and it will eventually happen to America, and we'll again discover that a lot of factors other then "racial ability" determine the "success" of a race.

Re: Xpost of Sklansky Thread From Philosophy Forum
 

"we'll again discover that a lot of factors other then "racial ability" determine the "success" of a race. "

Guns, Germs, and Steel.

To a lesser degree, crops, and their adaptability to various latitudes, as well as how much energy they yield per erg of work put into planting, growing, and harvesting them.

Re: Xpost of Sklansky Thread From Philosophy Forum
 

one simple example, i can't really prove it, but i suspect you'll see something akin to this when any race "under acheives" and it likely won't be understood what was really happening till much later.

I'm not going to get into the whole race as a social construct hing, but in reality we're all pretty similar.

Re: Xpost of Sklansky Thread From Philosophy Forum
 

I admitted the impact of racism on the historical situation which has partially led to blacks not being able to particpate fully economically in the past. But your statement about taking out cultural comments is just more of the same blame it all on racism position. Defective cultural elements and insufficient emphasis on education are the key to the failure of the black community to thrive economically. Racism is only part of the context, and cultural elements provide the majority of the context and are the things that blacks have control over.

Whitey don't make 13 year old black girls have babies, or 13 year old black boys pedal dope and carry guns, or make black youth in general listen to mindless rap crap that promotes ganster drug violence and degradation of women. And whitey don't keep them from pooling their own resources and starting and supporting their own businesses in their communities.

After they have for years applied peer pressure against instead of providing peer support for the problems I mentioned, then they can look around and see if whitey is still holding them back. Taking personal and community responsibility and forging a business and education culture is the only way that blacks can achieve economic success.

And as long as gangster rap is playing on radio stations, you will know that they aren't making the needed cultural changes because 13 year old black kids instead of black adults are still determining the economic future of blacks in America, while black leaders keep up the same old tune of it's-all-the-fault-of-racism.

Re: Xpost of Sklansky Thread From Philosophy Forum
 

if you follow the logic of your argument, that it is a black decision rather then outside influence, black's economically infererior position can only be explained by racial pathology.

In the context of history you can just as easily say that about the white race in the dark ages compared to middle easterners or asians. It's just intellectually lazy to disregard situation, and assume that a lack of performance by one group is can be explained solely by the current situation.

edit: this view sees black "under achievemtn" as spontaneous and self-imposed, at which point you'd have to ask why.

Re: Xpost of Sklansky Thread From Philosophy Forum
 

Every nation, ethnic group, religion and social affinity group has a culture and values. My point is that certain pop cultures and lack of appropriate values can be detrimental to any such group's economic achievement. And those things are matters of choice, not genetics or outside influences. Immature teenagers choose to listen to rap crap instead of to jazz. And if they listened to jazz or other music genres, then they wouldn't be getting a constant heavy dose of glorification of teen sex, drug use and violence.

And parents, even of low educational levels themselves, choose or not to force their kids to study and excel in academics, or to allow their kids to do whatever they want.

Any attempt to make it more complicated than that is ducking the issue and refusing to take responsibility.

Re: Xpost of Sklansky Thread From Philosophy Forum
 

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then they wouldn't be getting a constant heavy dose of glorification of teen sex, drug use and violence.


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I agree for the most part with your assessment. I just wanted to point out that Rock N Roll (60s, 70s, 80s) largely glorified teen sex and drug use as well (though no violence), and I would guess that since the 1960's that teen sex and drug use have risen sharply because of this. This culture has not stripped whites of any intellectual capability, though.

It also appears impossible to even address this problem without being labeled and dismissed as a hateful racist bigot or an Uncle Tom.

Re: Xpost of Sklansky Thread From Philosophy Forum
 

What are people's assessments, in context of BluffThis's argument, of West Africa (Mali, Ghana, etc) during the 1000ish-1300ish AD? I believe its lauded as one of the most advanced and powerful civilizations of the time, and certainly composed almost entirely of blacks. There was, of course, a dominant arab/muslim(?) culture present that had made its way across the desert from its origins.

Re: Xpost of Sklansky Thread From Philosophy Forum
 

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if you follow the logic of your argument, that it is a black decision rather then outside influence, black's economically infererior position can only be explained by racial pathology.

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"False dichotomy", a common logical fallacy. In this instance, it is a hidden assumption which gives rise to the false dichotomy.

Your conclusion is not ineluctable, and here's why: because your logical chain is predicated on the unspoken assumption that various groups will produce the same results if outside conditions are the same. But that is not true in the real world: different groups sometimes produce widely varying results even given the same conditions (especially so with groups of humans).

It's similar to the fallacious thinking used by some claiming Wal-Mart discriminates against women: Wal-Mart, on average, does not pay women as much as men; hence Wal-Mart must be discriminating against women. But that erroneously relies on the unspoken assumption that in the absence of discrimination, pay results would be the same. That assumption is fallacious--and in the case of female employees, there are in fact real-world reasons that have nothing to do with discrimination as to why women earn less (a few reasons are: maternity leave, time spent out of the work force raising kids, fewer years in the same career job or with one company, and the fact that men are on average more competitive and tend to work longer hours). Now, maybe Wal-Mart discriminates against women anyway, and maybe the lawsuit has other merits. But disparate pay rates between employees of different sexes at Wal-Mart is not prima facie evidence of discrimination, and it's a fallacy to think it is.

It simply isn't true that all groups, even very similar groups, will ultimately produce the same results given the same outside conditions. There are just too many variables involved, especially when humans are concerned--and one thing leads to another, and pretty soon you have individuals and even groups going down quite a number of different paths. Furthermore, as Robert Frost wrote, "way leads on to way."

So the fact that American black culture has taken certain twists and turns can be in part explained by historical oppression, in part by other cultural heritage, and in part simply by random variables, and one thing leading to another. In addition, the cultural impact of just ONE PERSON can sometimes outweigh the cultural impact of thousands of persons. The "human variable" is enormous indeed. The same may be said for certain key ideas.

Therefore, the fact that significant elements of black culture have in recent years embraced some very negative and destructive patterns, cannot be attributed only to "EITHER historical oppression OR racial predilection". There are simply too many variables involved, and throw in a little chaos theory as well, and the vast creative diversity of humans, and the fact that some cultural phenomena may tend to snowball or "fad", and it can be seen that the cultural potpourri, and currect trends, are far too complex to lay entirely at the feet of either "historical oppression or racial predilection.

On another track, an example which occurs to me: Gangsta rap became a huge fad, and advocates much violence and negativity. Perhaps chaos theory partially contributed to the initial "catch-on" phase of gangsta rap (I don't know the history of gangsta rap; just offering a hypothetical). It would not be surprising if the popularity of gangsta rap to some degree helps perpetuate those negative cycles previously mentioned, would it? This might be an example of a cultural phenomena snowballing and producing consequences well beyond the impact of that which started it in the first place.

Re: Xpost of Sklansky Thread From Philosophy Forum
 

i respect the argument but in this case i disagree (or possibly i don't disagree, but there might not be any reason to be talking about the issue then.

First of all we're working with terms like race that are inherently fuzzy. I sincrely doubt anyone can adquetley define what being black is. Secondly the issue was frames in terms of taking responsiblity, which to me implies choice, choice is an active element that isn't chaos.

The orignal poster certainly doesn't view "the rap fad" as chaotic, he views it as an irresponsible choice (i tend to disagree, but that's neither here nor there). The OP is simply not concerned with chaos theory.

I personally don't see these macro effects as the result of chaos, but of way leading to a way in a logical manner. However, i believe these causal linkages are so confusing and complex as to be to a large degree unintelligable, certainly as they're acting, maybe for all time. This while importantly different is largely indistinguishable from chaos.

The problem with accepting this view, is then there is no discussion. If social change is based in chaos then there's simply no reason to disucss it, as chaos plays such an unknowable but significant role that any active policies effects would be almost completely unpredictable.

Yet history has shown that it is in fact predictable. For instance American history tells us that in two or three generations an immigrant group is basically assimilated. If we're going to talk about blacks in comparison to them, then they immigraten en mass at the VERY EARLIEST in 1965, and imagine were not treated equitably at that point (and are still not treated equitably now). However this is/has been true for many other groups and i have great faith that it will be true for the black race as well, given a long enough period of ability to coexist without active and systematic discrimination.

The reason i say this is because if you look thoughout history this is invariably true, no race has shown any prediliction towards greatness above any other. The "Great" civilizations have occured spontaneously all throughout time from a variety of races, hence i have to reason to think race is not the causal issue of black under achievement. However there is a very compelling (though certainly not provable) explination in as much as it's only been 40 years since we legislated inequality.

People act as if slavery was over in 1860 and then everything was cool, why hasn't the black buisness community established itself like the white? well try being a black person and getting a loan up until almost yesterday. I'm not trying to say there isn't a difference between blacks and whites in America, but i have every reason to believe that this has to do with 300 years of inequity as opposed to consious choice over 40 years of freedom.

edit: sorry for all the grammer/spelling i'm just a lazy bastard and i just finished a final.

Re: Xpost of Sklansky Thread From Philosophy Forum
 

yes groups are different, history has shown time and again that race isn't the reason why group succeed or fail. So if race isn't the causal mechanism, but this group has underachieved, what are we talking about?

Obviously this under acheivement can be viewed in many ways, oen as essentially unpredictable, a la MMMMMMM, two as a result of the group's inherent qualities, or three as a result of actions outside of the groups control.

The results can be either random, endogenous, exogenous, or some combination thereof. ALL the evidence points towards door number three as the most likely and most important of the possible explinations.

Re: Xpost of Sklansky Thread From Philosophy Forum
 

I'm not saying social change is BASED in chaos; rather, that chaos contributes something, that's all.

But more importantly, I am saying that regardless of chaos theory, you are definitely employing a false dichotomy in your argument, because it is untrue that different groups of humans will always produce the same results under the same conditions. Humanity is far too diverse for that to be the case. This is so whether you are talking about groups of "race," or about other groups.

Re: Xpost of Sklansky Thread From Philosophy Forum
 

What problem exactly do you have with simply saying that any given ethnic group's cultural norms might be seriously flawed and harmful to them instead of using all that sociology mumbo jumbo and insistence that outside forces must be responsible for the majority of the reasons that one of those groupls might not do as well as others in the same society?

Re: Xpost of Sklansky Thread From Philosophy Forum
 

Another way to look at this, Jdanz, is to imagine the following: two random groups of 1000 humans on two isolated islands in the South Pacific. No outside influences whatsoever. Would they independently develop the same cultures, religions, languages? 300 years from the outset, might they not have widely differing customs, learning, etc? Even if enormous differences did not exist after 300 years, you can be sure there would be many smaller differences, and varying cultural developments and traditions.

Therefore, it would be wrong to assert that all in culture is developed EITHER due to historical pressures or racial predilection. In this imagined scenario, the false dichotomy of such a choice would be readily apparent. And it is also a false dichotomy to argue that all black culture must either be the result of long-past historical influences or racial predilection. Culture is something that is evolving, developing, growing all the time, and even building on itself; and it is created in the present moment, as well as carried on.

Re: Xpost of Sklansky Thread From Philosophy Forum
 

i think i may have mispoken in my first post, but i think my following post made it clear that i do agree with you.

Groups certainly diverge, i mean black skin has to do with an evolutionary bottle neck, i'm not saying that groups aren't different.

What i am saying is that there is a massive amount of evidence that black underperformance is not in fact due to this bottleneck but due to historical oppression. I happen to have studied the Irish famine pretty extensively, but having a pretty fair amount of knowledge about that, i see them as a near perfect parrallel for a society where one groups social and economic rights were systematically disrespected.

I can't think of any other group where the laws that held them from owning land or participating in government were so similar, so when i look towards the history of the repeal of these laws (in the Irish case) i see what i expect to happen in the black case, an incredibly slow and painful process of overcoming historical disadvantage.

I'm not argueing that groups aren't different, i'm argueing it would be absoultely absurd to think that because we changed some laws a little while ago that the race's economic situation should now be similar. This is quite like pvn's dislike of the somalia arguement, it completely ignores incredibly relevent historical context.

groups are different, but it's pretty clear that the difference in how "black america" has developed stems from other reasons then that.

Re: Xpost of Sklansky Thread From Philosophy Forum
 

First of I want to aplogize for not reading all the responses to an excelent topic..its been a long day and Im tired so Ill make it quick. I have the distinct advantage of growing up in an all lower income, black community(Im white, but dont hold that against me..hehe) My observations if you will..many black americans feel a sense of entitlement, and can you blame them, decades of federal assistance, where you are rewarded for dropping out of school and having children out of wedlock in the form of a gov. check which rivals that of a min. wage paying job. I saw first hand women having more kids in order to get more money or selling then food stamps for cash, sad but true. There is no greater recipe for disaster then single, uneducated, moms raising kids, our prisons are find examples of this. At best youre almost destined for a life of struggle and mediocroty. Black students who would try to excell in school were called or accused of "acting white" and that wasnt meant as a compliment. Remember, many Asians grow up in these same neighborhoods, and there were a few sprinkled throughout my hood, the difference being they came from a very strict two parent home with parents whose only concern was making sure their kids made it. Of course I saw that in black homes as well, just not as prevalent.

The ironic thing of it is that as far as racism is concerned, until very recently, areas of large black populations(innercities) were, are, almost entirely dominated by left leaning local black politicians or their white counterparts. I have more thoughts and observations but Im tired.

Spark
 

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Guns, Germs, and Steel.

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You are not a completely hopeless case.


link

Logorrhoea
 

The original poster, whom Sklansky is quoting, is confusing racial characteristics with cultural characteristics. Then he concludes that culture is tied to race.

It's all one big, long, very long turd. I've seen longer ones but I don't bother telling about them enthusiastically on public forums, like Sklansky does!

Of course, Sklansky has a reason to be interested in human manure:

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The busier these forums are, the more money I make.

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The Point of This Thread
 

Actually he was trying to show that some races are genetically inferior to others in regards to IQ and accomplishment. It was my response that tied culture to race and what I believe are the deleterious effects of many things in the dominant black culture in america that are more responsible for holding them back economically than racism is today.

Re: The Point of This Thread
 

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Actually he was trying to show that some races are genetically inferior to others in regards to IQ and accomplishment. It was my response that tied culture to race and what I believe are the deleterious effects of many things in the dominant black culture in america that are more responsible for holding them back economically than racism is today.

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It would be interesting to see how big a difference there is in general American achievement between descendants of slaves and relatively recent black African immigrants to the US.

Re: Xpost of Sklansky Thread From Philosophy Forum
 

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I can't think of any other group where the laws that held them from owning land or participating in government were so similar, so when i look towards the history of the repeal of these laws (in the Irish case) i see what i expect to happen in the black case, an incredibly slow and painful process of overcoming historical disadvantage.

I'm not argueing that groups aren't different, i'm argueing it would be absoultely absurd to think that because we changed some laws a little while ago that the race's economic situation should now be similar. This is quite like pvn's dislike of the somalia arguement, it completely ignores incredibly relevent historical context.

groups are different, but it's pretty clear that the difference in how "black america" has developed stems from other reasons then that.

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I think you are making an inappropriate comparison/analysis here. Regardless of the historical context of racism which has held back blacks in america, the appropriate time frame for the arguments I gave in my long main post in this thread is the past 30 years. During that time period follwoing the Civil Rights movement of the 60s, Asian immigrants have come to America in large numbers and prospered via the paradigm I gave above. Also for another comparison, one can even look at the Chinese who were induced to come here and work as little better than slaves on the railroads in the west and then see how their descendents faired.

But the key point of my cutural analysis is about RIGHT NOW. Those defects of culture that I mentioned you have not attempted to rebut, because they can't be rebutted. They do exist and they do hold back the black coummunity. So the crux of the matter is what is the black community willing to do in order to change those aspects of its culuture, including especially as I recommended purging itself of the gang rap teen-sex culture, and adopting an emphasis on education and pooling their economic resources to build themselves up.