Deep Stacks: Got CR\'d w Btm Set
 

party PL1000

i have 2500 to start the hand and villian has about 2350.

everyone limps including me in the CO with black 44.

Blinds checks.

flop: 10 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

I bet 50 after a series of disappointing checks.

folded to BB who CR's to $200 straight. the rest fold.

whats the plan?

fsuplayer

Re: Deep Stacks: Got CR\'d w Btm Set
 

I dont mean to hijack the post or anything but what would you guys do with AA [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] here also?

i guess thats a pretty bad question cuz you wouldnt of limped here but i think with AA [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] good arguments can be made for folding, calling, raising

Re: Deep Stacks: Got CR\'d w Btm Set
 

Call. Half the deck sucks on the turn. See what he does on the turn based on the card. I'm still more inclined to call down, unless the turn is a 2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] or the equivalent. Even if the turn is scary, based on teh size of the pot, size of his bets, you will probably still have the odds to see if you can fill up on the river. I don't think this is a bigger set...why would Villain check-raise, maybe top 2? Could really be anything, I guess you will just get a better idea based on the turn. Any reads on villain?

Re: Deep Stacks: Got CR\'d w Btm Set
 

Assuming you limped with it after several limpers on the button preflop?

Re: Deep Stacks: Got CR\'d w Btm Set
 

yeah sorry i noticed that before i even read your response i edited it

Re: Deep Stacks: Got CR\'d w Btm Set
 

yes i forgot to include that. he is a 20/5, which means a little too tight, and too passive pf. cant remember his agg. #'s though.

he's a reg. and I have play a bunch of hands with him, but i dont remember him, so he flys low and doesnt play bad, or aggressive that i have seen.

edit: flop agg. = 2 ish, which is normal i think.

Re: Deep Stacks: Got CR\'d w Btm Set
 

I like calling, don't think I like filling up here though [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

--turnipmonster

Re: Deep Stacks: Got CR\'d w Btm Set
 

You should post the turn play. I feel like the flop is easy (folding is way too weak, reraising will only get called by a set of T or 9 since he is 20/5, so what other option is there?)What happens on the turn is a lot more difficult, i.e. diamond, Q, J, T, 9...or like I said before, if the turn is a 2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] and he leads for the full pot or 3/4....

Re: Deep Stacks: Got CR\'d w Btm Set
 

[ QUOTE ]

I like calling, don't think I like filling up here though .

[/ QUOTE ]

How about spiking the case 4? Any better? [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Deep Stacks: Got CR\'d w Btm Set
 

fair enough.

Turn: 8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

villian thinks and checks.

Re: Deep Stacks: Got CR\'d w Btm Set
 

Warning: The following is not advice. Rather mere observation.

I'm guessing this is 6max which is generally what you play from reading your posts. My first thought was at this level somebody would raise with 10s or 9s preflop, so the first hand that came to mind was A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], but...

...after reading your last post, you're playing against someone who would limp with 10s or 9s and then checkraise because they think it will net them the most money and the flush and straight draws on the board scare the crap out of 'em.

I know this player because I have been him before. Onward and upward.

Re: Deep Stacks: Got CR\'d w Btm Set
 

my intial read of villian is two pair, it's more likely than a higher set.

--turnipmonster

Re: Deep Stacks: Got CR\'d w Btm Set
 

[ QUOTE ]
fair enough.

Turn: 8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

villian thinks and checks.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's one ugly turn card.

Re: Deep Stacks: Got CR\'d w Btm Set
 

just call and keep the pot reasonable. If he checks the turn, bet 3/4 the pot. If he bets the turn, call. If he bets again on the river call/fold depending on the size of the bet and how scary the board has gotten. 2 pair, strait draw, flush draw, or OESFD is likely here so i don't like giving up this hand easily.

This was a tough spot to be in. Hope it worked out okay!

By the way, the problem with reraising this flop, is that i think it's likely that he'll take this pot away with a worse hand.

Re: Deep Stacks: Got CR\'d w Btm Set
 

From your description, I really think your villain hates the turn card.

[ QUOTE ]
my intial read of villian is two pair, it's more likely than a higher set.

[/ QUOTE ]

Two pair was a close second to the first hand that came to my mind. I know set over set is unlikely, but I have lived this hand before many times from the other end.

But then I could be completely wrong.

Re: Deep Stacks: Got CR\'d w Btm Set
 

it seems villian is very unlikely to be checkraising a draw on the flop unless he's just getting out of line trying to take it down.

I don't think he can rule out you having a draw though, since you have good implied odds to call his flop raise and I assume you'll bet lots of hands in last position, lots of good things can happen betting draws on the flop last to act (free card, win pot now, etc).

it's a tough hand because villian can have anything in BB, but in terms of card combos he will have 9T more often than 99/TT. my vote is 300-350 on the turn. I think it is very hard for him to raise you with two pair and the board is only going to get scarier for both of you.

--turnipmonster

Re: Deep Stacks: Got CR\'d w Btm Set
 

[ QUOTE ]
That's one ugly turn card.

[/ QUOTE ]

it's actually not that bad considering. fsu player is certainly going to lose less if he's facing a higher set, and his position is going to allow him to make more from two pair. also, fsu can have a wider range of hands than his opponent and his opponent doesn't know whether he likes that card.

so I think villian should hate that card a lot more than fsuplayer should.


--turnipmonster

Re: Deep Stacks: Got CR\'d w Btm Set
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
That's one ugly turn card.

[/ QUOTE ]

it's actually not that bad considering. fsu player is certainly going to lose less if he's facing a higher set, and his position is going to allow him to make more from two pair. also, fsu can have a wider range of hands than his opponent and his opponent doesn't know whether he likes that card.

so I think villian should hate that card a lot more than fsuplayer should.


--turnipmonster

[/ QUOTE ]

OK - I agree - so what's the plan?

Bet pot and fold to a raise?

Will top two call us here? (maybe)
Will top or middle set, or turned straight fold to our bet? (doubt it)

Re: Deep Stacks: Got CR\'d w Btm Set
 

Any particular reason he doesn't have JQ[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] here?

Re: Deep Stacks: Got CR\'d w Btm Set
 

Re-raise hes trying to get a free card

Re: Deep Stacks: Got CR\'d w Btm Set
 

First off, I don't play the 1000 tables.

I would reraise the flop. This seems like the obvious play to me, so I'd like to hear why others didn't really consider this. As someone said, half the deck sucks on the turn. Get your money in their when you have the best of it and you know where you stand. I'd guess two pair for the BB, but some sort of draw is not out of the question (OESD+flush draw - i.e. 7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]). If he has a higher set I'd expect him to come back over the top, maybe consider laying down your hand in that situation? Either way, I'd be raising. You have position and probably the best hand on a draw heavy board.

Counter-arguments appreciated,
JKratzer

Re: Deep Stacks: Got CR\'d w Btm Set
 

Half a pot bet would work nicely here.

Re: Deep Stacks: Got CR\'d w Btm Set
 

[ QUOTE ]
Half a pot bet would work nicely here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. You still don't know where you stand but after villian either folds, calls, or raises, I think you will have more to work with. I hope I'm not being too weak-tight when I say that you should lay down to a second checkraise by villian. If he calls you can most likely put him on T9 or a higher set. Both of these will most likely make a small blocking bet on river or check to you where you can take a free showdown. If he shows a lot of aggression on the river, I think you can again fold, unless it's the case 4. Even if you fill up, I don't think you can call a big river bet because I highly doubt he would be check-calling the turn with a made draw then betting big when the board pairs on the river.

Re: Deep Stacks: Got CR\'d w Btm Set
 

To all the people who suggest betting the turn, what do you do when you bet 2/3 pot or whatever and he checkraises to say 1200. I suppose since he is 20/5 you lay down cause this is a pretty nitty image, but if he is a loose gambler, you still can't feel too great sticking your neck out...eitherway, I just feel like it's an awful bet to make because you hate to get raised...am I just being a pussy? If he has a draw, it could have just gotten there, but you want to be able to fill up on the river, if he has two pair he is drawing to 4 outs, so why bet?

Re: Deep Stacks: Got CR\'d w Btm Set
 

Why I wouldn't raise:

I would think most people would know to fold when they hit an OESFD on the flop in an unraised pot, they checkraise a bettor and he comes back over the top, what hands do you put him on, a set. Most people will know they are behind a set and lay down this super draw (you don't want them to lay down if they do have an OESFD). People especially with 20/5 will lay down, loose gamblers maybe not. The most likely holding, top 2 will definitely lay down, so what does raising accomplish? It will only be called 99 or TT...

Re: Deep Stacks: Got CR\'d w Btm Set
 

if he checkraises the turn again I would fold. I don't think it's a really tough fold on a board like that.

Re: Deep Stacks: Got CR\'d w Btm Set
 

Alright Ari, you asked for it.

I don't play much NL anymore, let's hope I haven't lost it. I'm playing in the hell that is 10-20 6 max right now [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img].

The scariest of all scare cards just hit the ever bloody turn and your opponent checks. You really think he wants to checkraise a draw OOP? Not this guy, he's got a made hand. Why would he shut out players with a checkraise out of position with a big c/r? Dunno, but Im putting him on made hand until proven otherwise and am going to use my position to control this pot. I dont like a pot bet, I dont like a 2/3 pot bet.

Half a pot gives him 3:1 on his call. If he has a set and thinks he now needs to fill on the river because FSU just hit that draw, he may consider dropping, a half pot bet also looks like a bet that is BEGGING to be called, therefore making it look more like his draw got there.

I think he'll freeze up if he has 2 pair or a set and will not block bet the river, and if this cat checkraises you there? Easy dump.

Now a 2/3 pot bet or so I don't know if it pot commits you too far. A pot sized bet surely might. I would use my position here to control this pot size and if he calls and checks the river take the freebie on the SD.

Re: Deep Stacks: Got CR\'d w Btm Set
 

I bet 3/4 to the full pot here. Hero has position, a strong hand, a great board to bluff with, and a very deep stack. I want my opponent to think that I am willing to stack off on this one. His flop check raise out of position makes me think he caught a piece of the flop but doesn't want to see a scary turn card. If he sticks another big check raise on me I fold.

Re: Deep Stacks: Got CR\'d w Btm Set
 

reraising the flop here is like 3 betting KK against a decent player. he folds everything you beat, and raises everything you lose to.

Re: Deep Stacks: Got CR\'d w Btm Set
 

I would bet 500 at him on the turn and fold to a raise. I definitely wouldn't want to see a 4th diamond and find out he's playing A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 10x too aggressively or some other befuddling played hand that happens to have a diamond in it. Plus if he's as tight as you say he is, he might fold 99 or 1010 here.

Re: Deep Stacks: Got CR\'d w Btm Set
 

turnip, bunky and a couple of others pretty much hit the nail on the head.

this turn card looks awful at first, but once this straight forward playing guy checks, its pretty clear he doesnt have a hand.

I bet $275 for a couple of reasons.

1. I can take a free showdown when I want to if he calls.

2. its really easy to fold to a big CR on that turn.

3. I would hate to give a free card to 109 here, which could boat him up, or possibly give a flush to 109d.

4. the chances of a 20/5 player going for the double CR, are very low.

5. lastly, there is a chance, however small that he folds 99 on this turn. as it appears to him that he may only be ahead of 44 here.

Re: Deep Stacks: Got CR\'d w Btm Set
 

turn: bet $300. If called, slowwwwwwwwww down. If raised, fold.

river (assuming he calls your turn bet):
if he calls your turn bet, he's either got a flush or a higher set. so your decision is fairly simple. Unless the river fills you up, you are check folding.

Re: Deep Stacks: Got CR\'d w Btm Set
 

Greg - nice post.

Bunky rules.
 

This is why I love 2+2. Great analysis, and explanation.

Re: Deep Stacks: Got CR\'d w Btm Set
 

[ QUOTE ]
turnip, bunky and a couple of others pretty much hit the nail on the head.

this turn card looks awful at first, but once this straight forward playing guy checks, its pretty clear he doesnt have a hand.

I bet $275 for a couple of reasons.

1. I can take a free showdown when I want to if he calls.

2. its really easy to fold to a big CR on that turn.

3. I would hate to give a free card to 109 here, which could boat him up, or possibly give a flush to 109d.

4. the chances of a 20/5 player going for the double CR, are very low.

5. lastly, there is a chance, however small that he folds 99 on this turn. as it appears to him that he may only be ahead of 44 here.

[/ QUOTE ]

The power of position in NL is a wonderful thing. The players who know how to use it properly make a ton of Money. Nice bet Mike.

Re: Bunky rules.
 

[ QUOTE ]
This is why I love 2+2. Great analysis, and explanation.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you very much for the kind words. It's appreciated.

Re: Deep Stacks: Got CR\'d w Btm Set
 

[ QUOTE ]
reraising the flop here is like 3 betting KK against a decent player. he folds everything you beat, and raises everything you lose to.

[/ QUOTE ]
Not true at all...overpairs and two pair are not beating you and those are certainly hands that i would checkraise with.

Re: Deep Stacks: Got CR\'d w Btm Set
 

[ QUOTE ]
yes i forgot to include that. he is a 20/5, which means a little too tight, and too passive pf. cant remember his agg. #'s though.

he's a reg. and I have play a bunch of hands with him, but i dont remember him, so he flys low and doesnt play bad, or aggressive that i have seen.

edit: flop agg. = 2 ish, which is normal i think.

[/ QUOTE ]

Was it HotNix? He is the only regular I know with a 5 for pf raise.

if it was him, his check raises are always really strong, so i would just call.

Re: Deep Stacks: Got CR\'d w Btm Set
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
reraising the flop here is like 3 betting KK against a decent player. he folds everything you beat, and raises everything you lose to.

[/ QUOTE ]
Not true at all...overpairs and two pair are not beating you and those are certainly hands that i would checkraise with.

[/ QUOTE ]

dude, reread my post.

i said that reraising would let him get away from everything that i am beating.

not that he wont CR any hands i can beat.

Re: Deep Stacks: Got CR\'d w Btm Set
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
yes i forgot to include that. he is a 20/5, which means a little too tight, and too passive pf. cant remember his agg. #'s though.

he's a reg. and I have play a bunch of hands with him, but i dont remember him, so he flys low and doesnt play bad, or aggressive that i have seen.

edit: flop agg. = 2 ish, which is normal i think.

[/ QUOTE ]

Was it HotNix? He is the only regular I know with a 5 for pf raise.

if it was him, his check raises are always really strong, so i would just call.

[/ QUOTE ]

no it wasnt him, it was whererugng.