KTs in a kill pot 5/10@FW
 

I'm posting this hand for a friend. I think the turn decision is very close, but I'll let the forum decide.

The game is 5-10 w/kill at FW. The table has been fairly loose/passive. There might be only 1-2 good players in the game, and they are UTG and the button in this hand. I have been doing well so far.

In a kill pot, I get K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] in the CO-1. The kill is UTG+1. UTG folds, kill checks, 2 callers to me, I call, CO calls, button calls, SB folds, BB calls. 7 to the flop.

Flop: K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

BB checks, kill bets, 2 MP players call, I call, CO folds, button and BB call. 6 players to the turn for 6.5BB

Turn A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img](K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img])

BB now bets, kill raises, MP's fold, and before I can call, raise, or fold, button says "$60".

What do I do?

Joe

Re: KTs in a kill pot 5/10@FW
 

You're drawing to the nuts with odds to call. Raising is an option because it may confuse folks, get you more action when you get there, and that bet may be headed in there anyway. But call.

Re: KTs in a kill pot 5/10@FW
 

[ QUOTE ]
You're drawing to the nuts with odds to call. Raising is an option because it may confuse folks, get you more action when you get there, and that bet may be headed in there anyway. But call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Even with the added information that its gonna be $60 to the river, not the $40? I know you are paying 2 bets than 1, but it could get capped by the original raiser and then its 2 bets and 2 bets to see that river. Also, don't we lose 1 out because the 3 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] might not be good?

Just curious to see if that changes your opinion. I think the added information makes the play tougher, not easier. If I knew the button wouldn't raise, then I think its an easy call, but I'm not so sure in this spot.

Thanks for the response.

Joe

Re: KTs in a kill pot 5/10@FW
 

Easy call. Worse case that you are behind a set you still have plenty of implied odds because backdoor flushes get less respect. Plus, your K outs could be good as well.

Re: KTs in a kill pot 5/10@FW
 

In the absolute worse case, 3 way capped to the turn against a set and two pair it is a hair little thin. Any thing short of that, however, and you're in somewhere between good and great shape.

Re: KTs in a kill pot 5/10@FW
 

I don't see anybody folding on this turn, so the bets from the field are providing you with ample odds to call for your draw, when you consider whats already in the pot, this call is extremely easy.

The real mistake here was not raising the flop, IMO. Top pair, good kicker, back door flush draw and 3 players behind you that haven't put in money in the pot (assuming I read the post correctly if you raise the flop the c/o, button, and BB all have to call 2 cold).

The turn is an easy call, let the button make it 60. If the other 3 players call and the room has a 4 bet cap, cap it up. If its a 5 bet cap, just call. Here's hoping you hit. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

lf

Re: KTs in a kill pot 5/10@FW
 

The turn is a call. Also, I think I'd have raised pre-flop, and then again on the flop.

Re: KTs in a kill pot 5/10@FW
 

[ QUOTE ]
The turn is a call. Also, I think I'd have raised pre-flop, and then again on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi Brett,

When my friend told me about the hand, I also thought that raising the flop was a good idea too. Preflop though, I'm not so sure the raise is warranted because of the 2 callers before you. I'd think you'd want to thin this field pre-flop, and at best, you lose 2 callers. I'm sure the BB, kill, and MP players all come along for the ride. Having said that, you might be right in the preflop raise, because you might buy the button for later streets.

Preflop is much more interesting than I first thought.

Joe

Re: KTs in a kill pot 5/10@FW
 

Raise pre-flop.

It makes the rest of the hand play smoother.

Barron Vangor Toth
BarronVangorToth.com

Re: KTs in a kill pot 5/10@FW
 

[ QUOTE ]
Raise pre-flop.

It makes the rest of the hand play smoother.

[/ QUOTE ]

The more I think about this hand, the more this makes sense.

Joe

Re: KTs in a kill pot 5/10@FW
 

Must raise preflop, you have what is likely the best hand, there is a lot of dead money out there and can buy the button.

Raise the flop, you likely have the best hand can still knock out a few players behind you and build yourself a nice pot.

If you look at this out of turn action as calling 3-cold, you are getting 12:3 which fine for your nut draw, even if you are short of paired board outs.

Re: KTs in a kill pot 5/10@FW
 

[ QUOTE ]
It makes the rest of the hand play smoother.

[/ QUOTE ]

How? He should be raising preflop for much more sound reasons than this one.

Re: KTs in a kill pot 5/10@FW
 

Look at the action of what happened.

Think about what would happen if you raise pre-flop.

Smoother > the obvious:

[ QUOTE ]
Must raise preflop, you have what is likely the best hand, there is a lot of dead money out there and can buy the button.

[/ QUOTE ]

Certainly, that plays a part ... but the whole hand may avoid this cluster-scenario of what did happen with the raise pre-flop.

Barron Vangor Toth
BarronVangorToth.com

Re: KTs in a kill pot 5/10@FW
 

[ QUOTE ]
Certainly, that plays a part ...

[/ QUOTE ]

No it doesn't, it's the whole thing, no "part".

[ QUOTE ]
Look at the action of what happened.

Think about what would happen if you raise pre-flop.

... but the whole hand may avoid this cluster-scenario of what did happen with the raise pre-flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, so we raise KTs preflop because when you flop top pair, turn the nut draw and there is a bet and raise and a out-of-turn 3-bet, it's much smoother...ah, I forgot that KTs is destined to this action, sorry. [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

Re: KTs in a kill pot 5/10@FW
 

Unless you can read the future, smoothness to come doesn't make sense. Sure, it s aby product of the pfr, but not the point.

Results
 

Sorry for the delay in the results.

My buddy folded to the 2-bet possible 3-bet. The button did 3-bet and it was 3-way to the river of the 6 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].

The kill had A3o and the button had 33 for the flopped set.

Thanks to everyone for the great responses.

Joe

Re: KTs in a kill pot 5/10@FW
 

[ QUOTE ]

Oh, so we raise KTs preflop because when you flop top pair, turn the nut draw and there is a bet and raise and a out-of-turn 3-bet, it's much smoother...ah, I forgot that KTs is destined to this action, sorry. [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]


You are being results oriented. (And that's coming from me of all people.)

If you raise, the whole hand changes.

Will the button be in there? Maybe. Maybe not.

The big blind? Maybe. Maybe not.

Others? Maybe. Maybe not.

Will your pre-flop raise create a different image than your late-position limp did? Maybe. Maybe not.

Will the whole hand go smoother? Maybe. Maybe n--

Scratch that. Almost definitely.

Barron Vangor Toth
BarronVangorToth.com

Re: KTs in a kill pot 5/10@FW
 

No, I think you're the one being results oriented. There are much better reasons for raising than "making the hand go smoother." I agree that the hand changes when you raise pre-flop. I also agree that "the hand goes smoother." But neither of these is a reason to raise and neither one is why the OP should have raised.

Re: KTs in a kill pot 5/10@FW
 

[ QUOTE ]
Raise pre-flop.

It makes the rest of the hand play smoother.

[/ QUOTE ]

You've neither explained why or even what you mean, so others are left to guess. You just assert it is so, and one doesn't know what is-ness is.

Is it the idea that you've defined your hand for others (and thereby created some logical structure to consider their actions)? That others have defined their hands by calling? Both? What? It's hard to have a conversation in this medium with someone who waves their hands.

Re: KTs in a kill pot 5/10@FW
 

Joe U posted this for me, he failed to mention that i had a dead read on the table and had built my original buy in of $250 up to around $600. I understand I was getting close to true odds to call but I knew I was up against a set. In this weak game raising preflop or on the on the flop would not in my opinion have changed any of the action based on the play in the previous 4 hours I was there. If anything I should have folded this hand preflop. I was clearly the best player at the table and thought I would be better suited getting my money into another pot where I would be much more of a favorite. At best in this hand I felt I had 8 true outs. Thanx for all the responses.
Kevin

Re: KTs in a kill pot 5/10@FW
 

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If anything I should have folded this hand preflop. I was clearly the best player at the table and thought I would be better suited getting my money into another pot where I would be much more of a favorite

[/ QUOTE ]

There must have been some really really bad players if you were going to fold this preflop. It's an absolute must raise w/the extra blind in this situation, a must.

Welcome to the forum,
Joe Tall

Re: KTs in a kill pot 5/10@FW
 

How can you think about anything but a call? You have a clean draw to the absolute nuts with correct odds to draw. I don't think there will be much debate on this hand.

You can call all turn bets and fold the river unless you have the absolute nuts and still turn a profit. In fact, this is probably exactly waht you should do.

good luck.
eric

Re: KTs in a kill pot 5/10@FW
 

[ QUOTE ]
I was clearly the best player at the table and thought I would be better suited getting my money into another pot where I would be much more of a favorite.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do other people avoid pushing situations with potentially small edges when they are a significantly better player than everyone at the table? Shouldn't that type of variance reduction be reserved for tournaments?

Mike

Re: KTs in a kill pot 5/10@FW
 

[ QUOTE ]
I was clearly the best player at the table and thought I would be better suited getting my money into another pot where I would be much more of a favorite.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is something a tournament player would say. Don't take this the wrong way, as it isn't meant to be insulting, but limit hold'em cash games are about making the play with the highest EV at all times, not avoiding the marginal ones and waiting for just the big ones. This certainly creates more variance, but is the only way to maximize your winrate. If you're truly serious about becoming an expert limit holdem player, I suggest you get out of the tournament "wait for a better spot" mentality, honestly and accurately evaluate every situation, and exploit every +EV situation to its fullest potential.

This hand against a field this horrible is certainly +EV, and so is calling the turn, even against a set. Assume the same pot size in terms of big bets (not dollars)/action, would you have called if it weren't a kill pot?

lf

EDIT cuz I suck at typing

Re: KTs in a kill pot 5/10@FW
 

[ QUOTE ]
Must raise preflop, you have what is likely the best hand, there is a lot of dead money out there and can buy the button.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are those tables passive enough that we're not worried about someone limping with KQ or KJ there?

Re: KTs in a kill pot 5/10@FW
 

i'd guess this type of play is due to the supersized nature of the bets making people a little gunshy to push their edges, especially for players that like the confidence boost of recording a win.

That said, I don't think limping KTs is the huge mistake it is being made out to be in this thread. After all, would you raise K9s? I'm guessing that no one would. If so, you are practically forced to admit that KTs must be very close either way. KJs? ok, now I'd say a raise is best. KQs? This is about where I would say just limping is wrong.

Re: KTs in a kill pot 5/10@FW
 

There's a word for winning 35 bets in a few hours: RunningGood. Yes. Yes. I know they were fools. And Yes. Yes. You don't toot your own horn so much as I don't understand how horrible these players are. If you think you can routinely pass up 5:1 on a 4:1 proposition with implied odds somewhere around 6:1 because of your dominance of the field, you're nuts. Not THE NUTS. But nuts.

Re: KTs in a kill pot 5/10@FW
 

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Must raise preflop, you have what is likely the best hand...

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KTs? Likely best hand? 3 random hands still out, plus a couple limpers, and king-high-no-kicker is taking down best hand honors already? Hmmm.

I agree that raising is acceptable. In my opinion, limping is too, especially if the kill pot encourages people to just limp with hands like AK, KQ...

I don't have lots of live experience with kill pots, but I suspect they cause people to play a little differently than normal.

-Eric

Re: KTs in a kill pot 5/10@FW
 

I am definitely an established cash player and you make a very good point about if it wasn't a kill. I agree now after looking back that I was getting the right EV, but I also feel good about folding because if you are not able to make a big laydown or fold a draw sometimes you are not really putting everything you can into your game. I know your response is going to be that laying down a draw with the right EV can never really be correct but I am not totally upset with my laydown whether the spade hit or not. I understand what you mean by the tournament mentality but I think it is OK to bring that thinking over to limit based on all the new players at the tables.

Re: KTs in a kill pot 5/10@FW
 

The more and more I think about it I should have called.

Re: KTs in a kill pot 5/10@FW
 

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After all, would you raise K9s?

[/ QUOTE ]

On the button, yes.

Re: KTs in a kill pot 5/10@FW
 

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Are those tables passive enough that we're not worried about someone limping with KQ or KJ there?

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Yes, they do this Scott but their range of hands is so large, Axo, 75o, 53s, 22, Kxo, J2s, etc that you are gaining some overlay, in addition to leveraging your position and mixing up your play. They are morans, pound on them.

Re: KTs in a kill pot 5/10@FW
 

I feel I can play with just about anyone after the flop, I know by folding there I didn't make the correct play but I totally disagree with raising this hand preflop. I have been playing much higher limits for a long time and when I move down to these limits I actually tighten up alot based on the calling stations factor.

Re: KTs in a kill pot 5/10@FW
 

heykev,

You should be more inclined to raise this hand preflop because of calling stations, not less inclined.

Rob

Re: KTs in a kill pot 5/10@FW
 

It's a must raise in LP there if he has the least remote chance to buy the button.

A hand I played a long time ago in the same game...

[ QUOTE ]
don't have lots of live experience with kill pots, but I suspect they cause people to play a little differently than normal.


[/ QUOTE ]

They do play a little different...the tight ones play tighter and the loose ones play looser.

Re: KTs in a kill pot 5/10@FW
 

[ QUOTE ]
I feel I can play with just about anyone after the flop, I know by folding there I didn't make the correct play but I totally disagree with raising this hand preflop. I have been playing much higher limits for a long time and when I move down to these limits I actually tighten up alot based on the calling stations factor.

[/ QUOTE ]

Have Joe give me a call next time you are headed down, we'll play some 20/40 together.

Re: KTs in a kill pot 5/10@FW
 

We have played the 20 many times together, it just hasn't been within the last year. I was a regular fixture in that game for about 3 years.

Re: KTs in a kill pot 5/10@FW
 

[ QUOTE ]
Have Joe give me a call next time you are headed down, we'll play some 20/40 together.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can arrange this. I'll just sit and make fun of you two for a change! [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Joe

Re: KTs in a kill pot 5/10@FW
 

[ QUOTE ]
They do play a little different...the tight ones play tighter and the loose ones play looser.

[/ QUOTE ]

The loose ones play LOOSER? Then I like a raise a lot more. I'd have guessed everyone would be a little more scared with the bigger stakes.

If they are really coming in even weaker than normal, then push your preflop equity edge.


-eric