KK vs turn donk...
 

Absolutely zero reads:

Paradise Poker 1/2 Hold'em (8 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is CO with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (8 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, SB folds, BB calls, UTG calls.

Turn: (5.50 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, Hero ...?

Re: KK vs turn donk...
 

I fold.

Re: KK vs turn donk...
 

Calldown HU. Raise here as we have a 3rd player to worry about who could very well have 5 outs. If the board were AJ33 or something I would just calldown here as well.

Re: KK vs turn donk...
 

What can we expect to see the donk bettor holding?

Re: KK vs turn donk...
 

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What can we expect to see the donk bettor holding?

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I have a hard time imagining he has anything other than an Ax hand here. If the flop had been a dud against my preflop raise, I could see him donkbetting any piece perhaps figuring the flop might've missed me.

Re: KK vs turn donk...
 

I call down and make a note of what he has and how he played it. I want to put him on a weak A, a likely aces up. A stronger A probably would have check-raised you.

Re: KK vs turn donk...
 

Raise and check behind (UI) on the river after folding the BB.

Re: KK vs turn donk...
 

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Raise and check behind (UI) on the river after folding the BB.

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Not a bad line at all. Can we fold to a 3-bet?

Re: KK vs turn donk...
 

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Raise and check behind (UI) on the river after folding the BB.

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Not a bad line at all. Can we fold to a 3-bet?

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what do you think? (hint: you're probably right)

Re: KK vs turn donk...
 

Well, what I think is that if we can fold to a 3 bet (which I believe we can) then I like the line. Otherwise, I hate it [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

Re: KK vs turn donk...
 

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I fold.

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I would usually fold this as well. Why do we not want to give credit to an unknown UTG for an A or better here when he bets into 2 players on the expensive street? Especially at 1/2?

Re: KK vs turn donk...
 

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I fold.

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I would usually fold this as well. Why do we not want to give credit to an unknown UTG for an A or better here when he bets into 2 players on the expensive street? Especially at 1/2?

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I misread the action. A fold wouldn't be terrible, but I ilke raising as the last money I put into the pot as some posters already suggested better.

Re: KK vs turn donk...
 

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I misread the action. A fold wouldn't be terrible, but I ilke raising as the last money I put into the pot as some posters already suggested better.

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I raise this against aggressive players but with no read I usually fold (maybe I played too much PokerStars). What range of hands is everyone thinking UTG is betting here? Flush draw? 7+flush draw? Flush draw + gs? Total bluff?

Re: KK vs turn donk...
 

My initial thought was that it was 4-ways on the turn and one player yet to act, ie he donked into 2 players. In this case I think it's a fold because the donk have to realise that he have zero folding equity when betting and the risk we're up against an A is greater against 4 players.

But in this situation I think he'll be bluffing or betting an inferior holding/draw at least 25% which is enough for us to raise for a free sd.

And this is most certainly a peculiar bet:
"A peculiar bet is likely to some from either a bluff or a really strong hand." - Sklansky

EDIT: I'm not sure that quote is 100% correct, but he has said something like that... [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

Re: KK vs turn donk...
 

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But in this situation I think he'll be bluffing or betting an inferior holding/draw at least 25% which is enough for us to raise for a free sd.

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Maybe it's just me, but it seems to be a tad strange to straight out bluff a preflop raiser when an A hits the flop. Unless of course he guessed (correctly) that I had a high pocket pair.

As for a draw, he certainly doesn't have a flush draw considering he had the perfect position to raise the flop for value. I can't imagine he'd pass that up in favor of betting the turn when his odds of hitting the flush are now halved. I really don't see any other draws unless he's donkbetting a five outter.

Re: KK vs turn donk...
 

I say it would seem UTG was waiting for the turn to act like he had an Ace, it could even be possible he was holding AJ and only limped from UTG with it...I would say your still behind here and I would fold..
Hades18

Re: KK vs turn donk...
 

Wow, great analysis, I'll have to look out for this. Very good point about the fact that there's only one player left to act.

Thanks!

Re: KK vs turn donk...
 

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Maybe it's just me, but it seems to be a tad strange to straight out bluff a preflop raiser when an A hits the flop. Unless of course he guessed (correctly) that I had a high pocket pair.

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Yeah, it's strange, but we have to realise there's no hand he could hold that makes perfect sense.

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As for a draw, he certainly doesn't have a flush draw considering he had the perfect position to raise the flop for value.

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First of all check/raising this flop with a fd would be a bad play from UTG. No reason for him to risk getting 3-betting and losing a costumer with slim equity. Better to call and check/raise when he hits his hand and have much greater equity. With added value from a gut-shot I still wouldn't be check/raising this flop.

But it's true, putting him on a draw makes no sense, but as said putting him on any hand that makes sense is hard. Could he have a weak ace afraid of giving a freecard? Possible, but I don't like that play. A7 or 77 betting because he improved his hand? Possible, but these hands should go for a check/raise, he has no reason to suspect we're not betting this turn. I think this bet is full of [censored] at least 25% of the time, may it be a draw semi bluffing, 2nd pair or a pure bluff. This is a strange bet, so I think it's worth it to look him up.