Chuck\'s ready to make a change
 

Below is the email correspondence:

All this sounds good. I'm going to make a post in the mod forum to see if there's consensus on any other splits or additions.

Mat

-----Original Message-----
From: Chuck Weinstock <weinstock@conjelco.com>
To: Mat Sklansky <MSklansky@aol.com>
Sent: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 10:06:37 -0500
Subject: New Forums


Mat,

I'd like to add new forums today or tomorrow. In particular
the various new ones that we've been holding off (HUSH, and
others I know...do you have a list?) and also a Forum Support
forum.

I'd like to start the forum support forum with a poll asking
about threaded vs. flat mode (the importance thereof.)

Do think that this is a good idea?

I'm sure we'd eventually sell this to Mason and David if we
have to. For what it's worth I prefer threaded mode as well,
but I can adapt if I have to. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Chuck

Re: Chuck\'s ready to make a change
 

Wooohooooo!

Re: Chuck\'s ready to make a change
 

He wants me to give him a list of exact changes today.

Re: Chuck\'s ready to make a change
 

Proposed changes - others can critique etc:

HUSH becomes:
-Mid-High Shorthanded (MHSH)
-Small-Stakes Shorthanded (SSSH)
-Heads-Up + Three Handed (HUT)

edit: There have been some comments that a HU3 forum wouldn't get enough traffic - A number of posters have said they would post there but if it ends up being a ghost town it could always be removed at a later date.

The 3 current limit hold'em forums become:
-Micro Limits(ML)
-Small Stakes(SS)
-Mid Stakes(MS)
-High Stakes(HS)

-Announcements and Events (AE)

This would be for:
The HULA threads, Magoofest, official releases of non-profit websites, official releases of software, information and updates regarding poker sites such as merges and software updates, conformist and emmitt222 type challenges. Could also be used for **Official Stars $45k** threads etc which currently take up alot of space in MTT.

-Vent, Rant + Rave (VRR) (?)

There has also been suggestions for a "Rant+Rave" forum(name subject to change) where players post bad beats / low content poker threads like flopping quads and having your opponent open-fold. This keeps the strategy forums free of them and allows moderators of strategy forums the ability to move threads to the rant+rave forum quickly and efficiently without insulting the original poster and keeps strategy content higher. There may be some debate as to whether it is worth encouraging this type of post by making a forum for it...or if it's worthwhile to keep it out of sight from most posters who aren't interested in running bad/ bad beat posts.

Surf

Re: Chuck\'s ready to make a change
 

A rant and rave, designated no content, or whatever forum sounds like a fantastic idea. People want to post these things. Many people even want to read them. However, I just don't like a slew of NC posts pushing strategy off the front page. Look at the designated NC threads in Micro. Those threads have a ridiculous number of replies AND views. I would seriously be dancing in the streets if I had a way to move threads of this sort to some sort of designated area.

Re: Chuck\'s ready to make a change
 

I have a question or two about how AE would work. Would you have to PM the (or any) moderator to start a thread? Would the threads be open to replies?

Re: Chuck\'s ready to make a change
 

[ QUOTE ]
I have a question or two about how AE would work. Would you have to PM the (or any) moderator to start a thread? Would the threads be open to replies?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know, that's an interesting point. I assume moderators could put stickys at the top for HULA etc, but it should be open to replies from regular posters IMO.

Surf

Re: Chuck\'s ready to make a change
 

Do people think that the new HUSH forums should be located in the limit holdem section rather than the general poker section? In principle, the idea of a forum for all sorts of shorthanded poker is reasonable, but these are already de fact limit holdem forums and anyone who posts an NL hand, a tournament hand, etc. only gets replies saying "don't post that here", so officially moving to the right section would create less confusion for newbies. Maybe the new heds up forum (if we do that) should be for all forms of poker though. I think there are real similarities between heads up play in any game and the interest the same people.

Re: Chuck\'s ready to make a change
 

That's a good point Bobby...I agree that MHSH and SSSH should be specific to limit hold'em, and it sounds like a good idea to have HU3(HUT? whatever) be for limit, NL, and tourneys since there are common situations and principles.

Surf

Re: Chuck\'s ready to make a change
 

i would be concerned about a 'vent, rant, and rave' forum usurping some of the proper content from OOT. 'running bad' or something to that effect would be good, i think, if it's supposed to be for bad beat/bad streak posts. it's just the name that concerns me.

Re: Chuck\'s ready to make a change
 

i think that splitting hush into low and high is better than splitting it into 3 forums. i think that the name "Heads up and short handed" pretty much implies that heads up is supposed to be in those, and i think that the ghost town effect is fairly likely in the third forum.

i think that an "events and official blah tournament/etc forum" would be a great idea, though it could get messy without very active moderation. if there were a way to implement a calendar into the forums that would be fantastic too, for both events forum and for places like the mtt forum, and the stt forum. an interesting question would be what to do with stuff like sweat threads, which could go here, or in an entirely different forum... i think that a lot of people like the sweat threads, but with so many good players playing the mtts, and so many mtts running all the time, it can get crazy. i know that the mtt guys have done a great job of having far fewer "official" and "sweat me" threads in that forum, but i think at the same time tons of people think it's a) fun and b) a great way to meet people and socialize.

i think that having a "bad beats, whining, how i'm running, stat brag, etc" forum would be great too. this is one of the most popular forums on several of the other poker boards that feature piles of new players, and i think they'd take to it well. i think that people with legit stat questions, or the occasional stupid post would still wind up in a strat forum, but for the most part we could dump all such garbage in a communal area and be done with it. if nothing else, it would be a place where we could move threads to stop them from being clutter AND not making anyone feel like a jackass.

wrt the split of mid/high to mid and high, i dunno, is there really either enough traffic for that or enough problems to warrant that? i think that most of hte posters are going to be the same people, and that the high limit forum just wouldn't get enough traffic.

dan

Re: Chuck\'s ready to make a change
 

I know a lot of the announcement and events stuff on the tournament forums are mostly because the members of that forum want to do things with other members of their forum. The only exceptions to this that are cross-forum are KotZ (which only recently spread to appeal directly to MTT readers) and the "Forum games" which were until recently run by DrPhysic (now run by hyde). So I wouldn't want to see the "Official 11r 45k guar thread"s moved to a new forum, nor would I want the stuff for the STTF gatherings.

FWIW, I think that HUSH should become MHSH and SSSH without HUT, but you can ignore my opinion because I don't read that forum [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] Honestly I think too many forums is a bad thing and a split should only occur if it's badly needed. Which is why I'm not in favor of splitting STT. Obviously those who know HUSH best say they need it, so I'm inclined to agree [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Chuck\'s ready to make a change
 

i think making separate forums for casino and internet mid limits would be better than a medium/high split

i can also see why people want a bigger limit HUSH, but the stuff that's 30/60 or higher is bound to be posted in the midhigh sections still because that's where the visibility is for most of the strategy posters

Re: Chuck\'s ready to make a change
 

Move HUSH so that it's under Texas Hold'em as well as what's been said above.

So I would reccomend it look like this:
Texas Hold'em
General
Limit Full Ring
High Stakes
Middle Stakes
Small Stakes
Micro Stakes
Limit Short handed
Mid-High Stakes
Small Stakes
HU-3 handed (if it's decided that this goes in)
No Limit and Pot Limit
Mid - High stakes
Small Stakes

As has been discussed no game gets discussed in HUSH other than limit hold'em. There are some posts, there was a recent question about heads up no limit, but the responses are basically always of the "go to a different forum" variety. Sometimes it's "go to a different forum, but here's your answer" which is better.

edit: d'oh apparently bobbyi beat me to it, put me down in favor of moving HUSH to limit hold'em.

Re: Chuck\'s ready to make a change
 

[ QUOTE ]
i would be concerned about a 'vent, rant, and rave' forum usurping some of the proper content from OOT. 'running bad' or something to that effect would be good, i think, if it's supposed to be for bad beat/bad streak posts. it's just the name that concerns me.

[/ QUOTE ]

I feel like this is basically what general is for.

I think adding another "vent" forum is just a moderating nightmare.

I think the strat forums are pretty good about dealing with LC posts, I'm not sure we need to build a solution to something that isn't really a problem.

Re: Chuck\'s ready to make a change
 

[ QUOTE ]
i would be concerned about a 'vent, rant, and rave' forum usurping some of the proper content from OOT. 'running bad' or something to that effect would be good, i think, if it's supposed to be for bad beat/bad streak posts. it's just the name that concerns me.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dunno. I'm not overly worried about OOT content winding up in a VRR forum. In the event that it did, a mod could easily move the thread from VRR to OOT. Additionally, if such a forum is put under the Poker heading, that'll help it get only poker content rather than stealling some fine content from OOT. I like the VRR name rather than a "Running Bad" name, because it shouldn't only be for downswing rants. We want all the stuff where some moran overcalls with the nut low and when someone brags about running good put in there too.

Re: Chuck\'s ready to make a change
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think adding another "vent" forum is just a moderating nightmare.

[/ QUOTE ]
Ditto

Re: Chuck\'s ready to make a change
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I have a question or two about how AE would work. Would you have to PM the (or any) moderator to start a thread? Would the threads be open to replies?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know, that's an interesting point. I assume moderators could put stickys at the top for HULA etc, but it should be open to replies from regular posters IMO.

Surf

[/ QUOTE ]

Personally, if we're making an "Official" announcements forum, I might like to see a format where only any mod can start a new thread, but any user can reply. OTOH, this format would do nothing to cut down on "sweat me!" threads, since people might not bother to PM a mod to start something in that forum about it. What do other people think?

Re: Chuck\'s ready to make a change
 

[ QUOTE ]
i think making separate forums for casino and internet mid limits would be better than a medium/high split

i can also see why people want a bigger limit HUSH, but the stuff that's 30/60 or higher is bound to be posted in the midhigh sections still because that's where the visibility is for most of the strategy posters

[/ QUOTE ]
I definitely agree with all of this.

GoT

Re: Chuck\'s ready to make a change
 

[ QUOTE ]
wrt the split of mid/high to mid and high, i dunno, is there really either enough traffic for that or enough problems to warrant that?

[/ QUOTE ]
I think you are misunderstanding the goal here (or at least what I think the goal should be). I don't see want to see mid/high turn into two forums. I want to see (small + mid/high) collectively turn into three forums rather than the current two. The new "high" forum would be similar to today's mid/high forum. The new "mid" forum would include both the top end of the current small stakes forum and the low end of the current mid/high forum. 15/30 and 20/40 games are very popular and important and currently have no real home. Some people, like jason_t, are posting those hands in small stakes. If I have a live 20/40 hand, that's where I post it as well, but having 20/40 hands alongside 2/4 hands is not good. Other people post those hands in mid/high, but that isn't good either as they mostly get neglected there because everyone is interested in bigger games. I think it would make much more sense to have small stakes be mainly for 2/4 through 5/10 (also live 6/12 - 9/18 games) since these games are fairly similar and then have a mid stakes forum for roughly 10/20 - 20/40 (plus live 10/20 - 40/80) games, and then have a high stakes forum where people can keep posting online 30/60 hands, live 80/160 hands and so forth. These seem to be the natural communities we have now anyone and it would be good if each had its own forum. The exact boundaries between the forums are debatable (should live 10/20 be in small stakes), and I think in general it's better to have rough guidelines and let people post where they feel is appropriate.

In the TStone letter thread in NVG, you'll see longtime respected posters like Rick Nebiolo (I think; going from memory here) saying they don't post hands in mid/high anymore because their lower mid-limit hands aren't really well received alongside the usual 50/100 hands. I feel the same way and haven't been posting there as much.

Re: Chuck\'s ready to make a change
 

regulars aren't going to be confused about this.

non-regulars are going to go directly there to post a 'rave' about a movie they just saw, a 'rant' about a neighbor's dog that's shitting in their yard, and that sort of thing. do you want to move all of their posts and explain things to them? people seldom read stickies. i think if something like this is even going to be considered the name should be extremely accurate.

Re: Chuck\'s ready to make a change
 

consider what a difference simply separating internet and casino games would do. each side would have a welcome and defined culture instead of the veteran/whipper-snapper back and forth that is now standard in midhigh.

Re: Chuck\'s ready to make a change
 

[ QUOTE ]
I feel like this is basically what general is for.

I think adding another "vent" forum is just a moderating nightmare.

I think the strat forums are pretty good about dealing with LC posts, I'm not sure we need to build a solution to something that isn't really a problem.

[/ QUOTE ]

I deal with 1-4 bad beat / lc / I run g00t/bad posts a day, more sometimes. It's really tough to keep them all in line without stepping on any toes, especially when there's no place for them to go. If we decide that that's what general is for i'll start moving them there and put it in the FAQ, but I didn't want to pollute that board with the detritus of another board.

It's a problem because clearly people want to post them - but most regulars in HUSH don't want to read them. The regulars get mad if they are left to clutter the front page, and the bad beat posters get mad if you lock their threads...giving them an avenue for expression is much needed IMO, because it's a pain in the ass right now.

Surf

Re: Chuck\'s ready to make a change
 

[ QUOTE ]
regulars aren't going to be confused about this.

non-regulars are going to go directly there to post a 'rave' about a movie they just saw, a 'rant' about a neighbor's dog that's shitting in their yard, and that sort of thing. do you want to move all of their posts and explain things to them? people seldom read stickies. i think if something like this is even going to be considered the name should be extremely accurate.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is a good point. Make it under Poker and have it be "Variance and Bad Beats" or something so it is clearly poker-related.

Surf

Re: Chuck\'s ready to make a change
 

I don't think it would work well because there are so many more online poker posted than live poker hands. The live forum would be a ghost town and the interent forum would be the same as today's mid/high except that when someone has an interesting live hand they would be told "don't post that here". People like having a "home" forum. Those of us who play middle stakes both live and online would feel comfortable in a mid-stakes forum. Most people who post live hands also play online, so they would rather just post both hands in their "regular" forum with the same community. You would still have online 15/30 hands hands going in small stakes alongside online 2/4 hands.

Re: Chuck\'s ready to make a change
 

i can assure you that a lot of the reason that you think the live forum would be a ghost town is that regulars were put off by internet hands and the lack of culture and simply stopped posting. activity inspires other activity. people aren't inspired by one good b&m hand in a sea of "30/60 AK NO READS" hand converter dumps, and those hand converter dumps do still deserve a place.

Re: Chuck\'s ready to make a change
 

[ QUOTE ]
i can assure you that a lot of the reason that you think the live forum would be a ghost town is that regulars were put off by internet hands and the lack of culture and simply stopped posting. activity inspires other activity. people aren't inspired by one good b&m hand in a sea of "30/60 AK NO READS" hand converter dumps, and those hand converter dumps do still deserve a place.

[/ QUOTE ]
Have you been reading my mind again? [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Are we still on for Sunday, after the game, behind the dumpster? [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Chuck\'s ready to make a change
 

i honestly have a thing for women with shaved heads

Re: Chuck\'s ready to make a change
 

[ QUOTE ]
regulars aren't going to be confused about this.

non-regulars are going to go directly there to post a 'rave' about a movie they just saw, a 'rant' about a neighbor's dog that's shitting in their yard, and that sort of thing. do you want to move all of their posts and explain things to them? people seldom read stickies. i think if something like this is even going to be considered the name should be extremely accurate.

[/ QUOTE ]

What about calling it "Poker Vents, Rants, and Raves?"

Re: Chuck\'s ready to make a change
 

As a side-effect of this, I'd prefer to be a moderator of MHSH when the changes are made because that is where i'll spend most of my time posting. I'll be happy to cover for the other HU/SH forums in the interrim or even permanently if necessary.

Also, I think Schneids is a great candidate for moderator of HU3, and Josh.(stheif) would be be a really good candidate for MHSH too because of the sheer volume of posts / amount of time he spends in HUSH and in the future MHSH.

Surf

Re: Chuck\'s ready to make a change
 

i still like the 'variance and bad beats' name a lot better.

like dids i have a natural reservation about the idea of it, but if it is something that's taken off on other poker forums it should certainly be considered more deeply.

Re: Chuck\'s ready to make a change
 

[ QUOTE ]
For what it's worth I prefer threaded mode as well,
but I can adapt if I have to.

[/ QUOTE ]

To me it's not an either mode. I use threaded to view the forum pages, then I click on a thread, and usually elect to read it in flat.

Re: Chuck\'s ready to make a change
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
For what it's worth I prefer threaded mode as well,
but I can adapt if I have to.

[/ QUOTE ]

To me it's not an either mode. I use threaded to view the forum pages, then I click on a thread, and usually elect to read it in flat.

[/ QUOTE ]
You use "expanded mode" to view forum pages.

This is what I want to submit to Chuck.. Any more additions?
 

"HUSH becomes:
-Mid-High Shorthanded (MHSH)
-Small-Stakes Shorthanded (SSSH)"
MHSH and SSSH should be specific to limit hold'em

"The 3 current limit hold'em forums become:
-Micro Limits(ML)
-Small Stakes(SS)
-Mid Stakes(MS)
-High Stakes(HS)"

"A rant and rave, designated no content, or whatever forum sounds like a fantastic idea. People want to post these things. Many people even want to read them. However, I just don't like a slew of NC posts pushing strategy off the front page. Look at the designated NC threads in Micro. Those threads have a ridiculous number of replies AND views. I would seriously be dancing in the streets if I had a way to move threads of this sort to some sort of designated area."
(I like this notion of a trash can of sorts) I think it should be called the forum of low content: a place where posts are moved from strategy forums rather than deleted or locked. This will include bad beat posts. The name can always be changed if there is confusion.


Also, the forum suggestion forum.

Re: Chuck\'s ready to make a change
 

I'd like to make changes slowly. Can we wait on this potential split?

Re: This is what I want to submit to Chuck.. Any more additions?
 

Awesome Mat, that looks great.

Are we forgoing a HU/3handed forum for the time being? That's fine by me, hopefully we can give it a shot after the next software upgrade if mid-high hush gets enough HU traffic.

Surf

Re: This is what I want to submit to Chuck.. Any more additions?
 

Yes, I want to wait on that.


And by the way, It's you guys that are awesome. I just quoted . Thanks.

Re: Chuck\'s ready to make a change
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'd like to make changes slowly. Can we wait on this potential split?

[/ QUOTE ]

i think it would be best to make the changes much more slowly: just split HUSH and add a forum suggestion forum.

look into the variance/bad beat forum more thoroughly before adding it. if it is added, don't call it 'rants and raves' or that sort of thing because of the overlap with OOT. if it's just going to be a 'trash can', it seems unlikely that people would be interested in poring through it in order to find something of interest. if it's just going to get moved and not seen, is it very different from a lock or a delete?

keep mid/high as-is and discuss an internet/casino separation in lieu of breaking it up by limits any further. i feel i'm particularly qualified to weigh in on this as a longtime midhigh veteran. GoT and felicia, also veterans, seemed to strongly agree with me. the HUSH people have been going nuts about a split for ages. messing with midhigh is a controversial topic.

Re: This is what I want to submit to Chuck.. Any more additions?
 

Since there is talk of splitting other forums (which I think is a good idea btw), I had a thought about the WPT/other TV poker forum. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that ostensibly for strategy and analysis? I saw a Matasow hand on TV I would have liked to have discussed... but thought better of it. It would have degenerated into some discussion of how Matasow is a jerk, or made fun of his mental illness, or something equally assinine. I'm sure there are some good posters there, and I don't want to offend anyone, but it seems that forum is dominated by fanboy types who like to bitch about how Chris Moneymaker or Tiffany Williamson are total fish and nonsense like that. If you are going to have a "rants and raves" forum, why not one dedicated to gossipy discussion of poker and TV stuff?

Re: This is what I want to submit to Chuck.. Any more additions?
 

i think it would be pretty difficult to discuss how OTHERS played hands without it being gossipy:

'he played that hand like crap'
'i would have played that totally differently'
'so why aren't you a millionaire?'

and so it evolves.

NVG is probably the appropriate place for pure-gossip tv threads, but it's not my area and i'd rather leave such decisions up to the moderators of those forums.