Partymine going to be obsolete?
 

I keep reading that the Party Beta doesn't let you have the .hhf of observed games. When this Beta goes live, which I would assume is imminent, will there no longer be any way to mine?

Re: Partymine going to be obsolete?
 

i doubt it's that imminent -- apparently still lots of bugs to fix.

Re: Partymine going to be obsolete?
 

umm, imminent doesn't mean real soon...it means will happen at some point.

Re: Partymine going to be obsolete?
 

jmillerdls,

Actually that's exactly what imminent means. I believe you're thinking of inevitable.

Cordially,
GP

Re: Partymine going to be obsolete?
 

imminent adj - close in time; about to occur

Re: Partymine going to be obsolete?
 

[ QUOTE ]
imminent adj - close in time; about to occur

[/ QUOTE ]

p3ned

Re: Partymine going to be obsolete?
 

Not one single serious reply to the actual question!!!!!
C´mon guys. Somebody should know!

// M

Re: Partymine going to be obsolete?
 

So...I am an idiot...fair enough. Anyone want to comment on the quesiton as it was intended (substitute imminent with inevitable)?

Re: Partymine going to be obsolete?
 

I think its still a ways off as the Beta seems pretty buggy. However if this is thir plan, then yes it would be obsolete. I just dont think we have anything to worry about just yet.

Re: Partymine going to be obsolete?
 

hopefully the final version will allowed observed HH. Otherwise someone just needs to find a way to capture them [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Partymine going to be obsolete?
 

If this happens, I could potentially read the text out of the chat window. Problem with that is it doesn't provide enough information usually to completely create the hand history as it is in the hhf's.

If they are no longer generating observed histories or hhf's I am wondering how applications like Pokertracker will handle it.

Re: Partymine going to be obsolete?
 

Er like it does at Stars - you will need to be dealt into the hand to have hh written to your hard drive.

If they do decide to stop the dataminers (no bad thing given how easy to abuse it is IMHO) then they will probably also follow Stars in banning screenscraping..


That will just leave Prima (where you can;t see mucked hands even if you are in a hand) and the UB 'insta-mining' as sites for getting hh where you aren't dealt in on them..

Re: Partymine going to be obsolete?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Problem with that is it doesn't provide enough information usually to completely create the hand history as it is in the hhf's.

[/ QUOTE ]Really? Look at everything that happens when the dealer's set to "Everything". That's not enough to reconstruct?

[ QUOTE ]
If they are no longer generating observed histories or hhf's I am wondering how applications like Pokertracker will handle it.

[/ QUOTE ]I don't much see what Pokertracker's got to do with it. You'll still have hand histories, just not OBSERVED hand histories. Maybe Pat will write a screen-scraper, but I doubt it.
-Sam

P.S. I actually hope Pat doesn't get involved with this. I can run a mining app from a machine I haven't logged into Party with. Not true for PTracker. I don't want PTracker on the banned list.

Re: Partymine going to be obsolete?
 

You say "They'll outlaw scraping" like that's the end of it. The thing is, if I can open as many instances of Party as I want, and load 4 tables on each w/o logging in, I don't much care what they allow. They're not going to be able to stop me.

I like mining better when it's legal, but I don't see a big problem in running against their rules here.
-Sam

Re: Partymine going to be obsolete?
 

[ QUOTE ]
You say "They'll outlaw scraping" like that's the end of it. The thing is, if I can open as many instances of Party as I want, and load 4 tables on each w/o logging in, I don't much care what they allow. They're not going to be able to stop me.

I like mining better when it's legal, but I don't see a big problem in running against their rules here.
-Sam

[/ QUOTE ]

Just because you haven't logged in with your ID yet doesn't mean that there are not ways to determine who you are. Assuming you save your ID and password they could potantially read that information out of the file it is sotred in on your machine. They also at the very least will log the IP address that made the connection and you could have trouble if you end up logging in from the same IP that they logged a screen scraping program from.

Party has shown that they are willing to take steps to keep people from using programs they deem against their T&C. They have already shown in the past that they scan your machine for programs that they have banned. Once you make a connection to their servers they can do that whether you log in or not.

In addition it would be fairly simple to create a unique key based on the computer that is logging in for each instance pf party. Justr as Poker Ace, and Poker Tracker etc make a unique key for your installation. They could certainly set something up that just disallowed that instance of Party making a successful connection again no matter who logs in from it. Presumably you could get around this by reinstalling the program, but if they caught the program once they will certainly catch it again.

On top of all of that. They could always just fix the bug that allows you to spawn multiple copies of Party that would also be very easy to fix by just amking the program s5-10 seconds before it spawns and then run it's check to see if another isntance is running.

I don;t know if they will go to all of these lengths to stop data mining, but they certainly could and it wouldn;t be that difficult to do.

Re: Partymine going to be obsolete?
 

ok you have to realize that we are still their customers. they arent going to start banning accounts because it was used on a computer where someone was datamining without being logged in. there is a big difference between banning people for using poker-edge while logged in, and banning people for screen scraping without being logged in

but basically theres no use in worrying about this. itll suck a lot but theres nothing we can do

Re: Partymine going to be obsolete?
 

[ QUOTE ]
ok you have to realize that we are still their customers. they arent going to start banning accounts because it was used on a computer where someone was datamining without being logged in. there is a big difference between banning people for using poker-edge while logged in, and banning people for screen scraping without being logged in

but basically theres no use in worrying about this. itll suck a lot but theres nothing we can do

[/ QUOTE ]

I do realize that. I even specifically said I don't know if they will go to those type of lengths to stop this. I was simply responding to the statement "They're not going to be able to stop me." If they want to stop it they certainly can.

Re: Partymine going to be obsolete?
 

Whatever Party does to try an prevent people from collecting HH's can be circumvented if someone is willing to spend enough time/money to do so.

Someone could simply create a device to read the digital signal sent to the LCD screen and scrape the screen with no software running on the poker client host. Party would be unable to detect this.

A robot could be created by combining the above device with another device that outputs the same signals (under the control of a 2nd computer as above) as a mouse and plugging that into the mouse port. Party would be unable to distinguish this from a human operating the mouse (assuming the programmer was smart enough to use some form of randomization when selecting which mouse co-ordinates to supply when clicking the mouse buttons).

As for Party tracking you by IP address....that is about the simplest surveillance method to circumvent (for the knowledgeable).

I don't know the specifics of how a virtual machine (running Windows) handles certain details, but it should appear to the Party servers as multiple unique computers, thus allowing someone to collect HH's from many tables using only one computer.

There are also several ways to conceal software running on the poker client machine that are a lot easier than any of the above methods. I suggest you search for information about rootkits if you're interested.

G'luck all,
LVGamb00ler

Re: Partymine going to be obsolete?
 

It's not even screen scraping to get the text in the dealer history - you can use simple Windows API calls to do it, it's just text in a RichTextBox

Re: Partymine going to be obsolete?
 

Going low tech for a moment- there will be nothing to stop groups of players from creating large shared databases from their own hand history files. Hopefully Party recognizes this and just continues to allow .hhf...

Re: Partymine going to be obsolete?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Going low tech for a moment- there will be nothing to stop groups of players from creating large shared databases from their own hand history files. Hopefully Party recognizes this and just continues to allow .hhf...

[/ QUOTE ]

Um yes there is, giving someone full access to your play is just plain dumb.

Re: Partymine going to be obsolete?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Going low tech for a moment- there will be nothing to stop groups of players from creating large shared databases from their own hand history files. Hopefully Party recognizes this and just continues to allow .hhf...

[/ QUOTE ]

Um yes there is, giving someone full access to your play is just plain dumb.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why? No one is going to want to sit at my table, regardless of whether they have 1,000 hands of my play or not.

Re: Partymine going to be obsolete?
 

I hope somebody starts a hh exchange site or board if party stops the hh. Something where its a 2 way street, you give, you get.

I'll be joining and sharing my data.

Re: Partymine going to be obsolete?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
giving someone full access to your play is just plain dumb.

[/ QUOTE ]Why? No one is going to want to sit at my table, regardless of whether they have 1,000 hands of my play or not.

[/ QUOTE ]I completely agree. This was one of the issues with PlayerView. If you have 1k hands on me, you'll see that I'm (get this) tight and aggressive. If you have 30k hands, you'll see just about the same.

I'm not saying the information's worthless, but I'd much rather give you 30k hands of mine if you'll give me 10^7 hands in exchange.
-Sam

Re: Partymine going to be obsolete?
 

When you give a player more than statistics, ie your exact play they have what is closer to perfect information on you. It opens you up, believe it or not there are playing styles that specifically look for tag players to play against.

Re: Partymine going to be obsolete?
 

then you will be breaking TOS and if they forfeit your account you presumably will have no complaints?

Re: Partymine going to be obsolete?
 

[ QUOTE ]
then you will be breaking TOS and if they forfeit your account you presumably will have no complaints?

[/ QUOTE ]Above, I talked about a machine that never logs in and only mines. I felt pretty confident saying above that they couldn't catch me. However, if I only email hand histories to friends, I double-dog dare them to try to catch me. Wanna explain how they'd manage that one?
-Sam

Re: Partymine going to be obsolete?
 

Sam, if your mining machine and your poker machine are on the same network, they share the same external IP address. Party will see this and can do what they wish with the info.

Re: Partymine going to be obsolete?
 

This thread is gettin serious now. A double dog dare has been issued!!! Any takers?

Re: Partymine going to be obsolete?
 

OK in order to use the information in real time when you play you will presumably have a HUD up (probably PAHUD if you have any sense). So they just take a screen shot - see that the stats you have up for a player don't reconcile with your personal play history with them and you are caught..

Of course they would have to be pretty seriously into investigating you to bother to do this, but you did double dare them!

Re: Partymine going to be obsolete?
 

[ QUOTE ]
but you did double dare them!


[/ QUOTE ]

Oh no my friend. He double dog dared them.

Re: Partymine going to be obsolete?
 

Removing the HH files and not having chat have enough info still won't remove it. You can easily sniff the wire and parse the IP packets, on an entirely separate computer for that matter. It's more work, but it can certainly be done.

Setting up a second computer to do the sniffing and show stats on a 2nd monitor makes the mining completely untraceable.

Re: Partymine going to be obsolete?
 

Has Party said they aren't going to include observed HH's? It is a beta and may have been somethng they just haven't included yet.

Re: Partymine going to be obsolete?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Setting up a second computer to do the sniffing and show stats on a 2nd monitor makes the mining completely untraceable.

[/ QUOTE ]

This would be possible if Party was completely and utterly stupid (debateable) and sent the network traffic unencrypted. However, they likely use SSL for their encryption and that is extremely difficult, if not impossible, to break in a time frame to make the data worthwhile.

Re: Partymine going to be obsolete?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Has Party said they aren't going to include observed HH's? It is a beta and may have been somethng they just haven't included yet.

[/ QUOTE ]