Deep 3/6NL: CAll all in preflop with AQs?
 

I was browsing through some of my old threads from another forum and came across this one. I believe it should get some good responses here. This hand happened back in May:

Party NL600 6-max.

UTG: ($1500)
CO: (VILLIAN) $2100
BUTTON HERO w/$1550 A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
SB: ($600)
BB: ($600)

PREFLOP: All fold to VILLIAN to moves all in. Easy fold of course? Well...here's the backround:

Villian to my right has built his stack up by using one move: ALL IN. Even his SCREENAME was All-IN_7 (something like that). On an average of about once every orbit, he would move all in for his entire stack preflop, almost never getting a caller. He has pushed preflop about 20 or so times. The only 2 times he got called was by a short stack when the villian had A 8o and by a medium stack when the villian had A Jo. Sometimes he would show his hand, other times he wouldn't. The times he showed his hand was when he had 10 5o, A 4o, 10 Js, 7 8s, 7 2o and one time he had a good hand, KK. He would make this move regarless of position, limpers, etc. There seemed to be no pattern to his all ins. And yes, he had open pushed with those junk hands with my big stack waiting behind him.

The hand immediately before I got my A Q , he moved all in, everyone folded and showed AK. At that point he had not gone all in preflop for about 3 orbits...which was in fact a long time for him. The first time he did it I would NEVER call him with AQ since he hadn't done it in awhile. If he showed 9 4 the previous hand or some other crap I would now fold my AQ since I would feel a trap coming. But now the reverse is true. And I don't think he is smart enough to think on the level of pushing with AK therefore push with aces the next hand.

Re: Deep 3/6NL: CAll all in preflop with AQs?
 

it's sooted
call

Re: Deep 3/6NL: CAll all in preflop with AQs?
 

It's an easy fold because of the history, not despite it.

-Diplomat

Re: Deep 3/6NL: CAll all in preflop with AQs?
 

I call here, i'd like to put an end to this behavior....

Re: Deep 3/6NL: CAll all in preflop with AQs?
 

Why? This is great. Every time he does this he's risking 1500 to win 9 or so.

-Diplomat

Re: Deep 3/6NL: CAll all in preflop with AQs?
 

How are these hands remotely interesting?

Re: Deep 3/6NL: CAll all in preflop with AQs?
 

I think this is one of the most interesting hands of poker I've ever played. I don't see how it's boring.

Re: Deep 3/6NL: CAll all in preflop with AQs?
 

AQs is the worst hand i call here with, i call with TT+, AQs+, AKo

the whole reason you don't call with worse is that you get 1 chance to win 1600 off him here, if you are wrong you will likely not get this opportunity again, it may be correct to pass up an immediately +EV situation to get a more +EV spot later

now that i'm thinking i might even fold AQs heh

Re: Deep 3/6NL: CAll all in preflop with AQs?
 

[ QUOTE ]
At that point he had not gone all in preflop for about 3 orbits...which was in fact a long time for him.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you hadn't said that, insta-call. But with him apparently tightening up his range, it's marginal with AQs.

Re: Deep 3/6NL: CAll all in preflop with AQs?
 

I was thinking call till I read this:

[ QUOTE ]

the whole reason you don't call with worse is that you get 1 chance to win 1600 off him here,

[/ QUOTE ]

If you only have your original buy in of 600, then definately call. But if you lose, you'll have to get back in at $600 and win another $1000 before you'll be able to take $1600 from him.

But now I'm changing my mind again...
Ff this is his only move, you might not ever to a spot where you could call him. (waiting for AA-TT, AK).

Re: Deep 3/6NL: CAll all in preflop with AQs?
 

why think so hard against an opponent that doesn't merit it

this is close enough to a hand vs deck decision to call with very little thought

Re: Deep 3/6NL: CAll all in preflop with AQs?
 

I would pray, then call, and then be prepared for huge varience

Re: Deep 3/6NL: CAll all in preflop with AQs?
 

[ QUOTE ]
How are these hands remotely interesting?

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not at all interesting. It's a very simple math/logic problem.

-Diplomat

Re: Deep 3/6NL: CAll all in preflop with AQs?
 

I voted call -

- this guy likes to gamble and gets off by pushing the table around.

-he just pushed and everyone folded so he is feeling good about himself and his ability to bully.

But....

after thinking about it, I probably would fold. I am not very excited about sticking in 2.5 buy-ins in this situation. If this were 5/10 I call $1500 right away. But at 600NL, it's a different story for reasons that others have already mentioned.

Re: Deep 3/6NL: CAll all in preflop with AQs?
 

Did this hand happen April of this year?

Re: Deep 3/6NL: CAll all in preflop with AQs?
 

I posted it in May so it likely happened early april/early may.

Re: Deep 3/6NL: CAll all in preflop with AQs?
 

[ QUOTE ]
it may be correct to pass up an immediately +EV situation to get a more +EV spot later

[/ QUOTE ]

What?!

Why would you ever pass up a +EV situation in a cash game?

If you answer "bankroll considerations" you are either playing too high or you are too risk averse which is about the same.

Re: Deep 3/6NL: CAll all in preflop with AQs?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
it may be correct to pass up an immediately +EV situation to get a more +EV spot later

[/ QUOTE ]

What?!

Why would you ever pass up a +EV situation in a cash game?

If you answer "bankroll considerations" you are either playing too high or you are too risk averse which is about the same.

[/ QUOTE ]

Read his entire post again, it actually makes a lot of sense.

EDIT: From his post it might not be entirely clear. This is $600 capped buyin game. Hero has $1600 and fish has him covered. So though we might have an edge here (let's say 10% for example, we win $160) But if we wait we might have get a spot wehre we have a 30% edge ($480). If the buyin wasn't capped, this wouldn't be a consideratino, but if we bust out in this marginal situation we can only buy back for $600, so we don't make as much when we get in a better spot with the fish.

Re: Deep 3/6NL: CAll all in preflop with AQs?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
it may be correct to pass up an immediately +EV situation to get a more +EV spot later

[/ QUOTE ]

What?!

Why would you ever pass up a +EV situation in a cash game?

If you answer "bankroll considerations" you are either playing too high or you are too risk averse which is about the same.

[/ QUOTE ]

Read his entire post again, it actually makes a lot of sense.

EDIT: From his post it might not be entirely clear. This is $600 capped buyin game. Hero has $1600 and fish has him covered. So though we might have an edge here (let's say 10% for example, we win $160) But if we wait we might have get a spot wehre we have a 30% edge ($480). If the buyin wasn't capped, this wouldn't be a consideratino, but if we bust out in this marginal situation we can only buy back for $600, so we don't make as much when we get in a better spot with the fish.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please give me an example of a hand that AQs beats but is an insignificant favorite over. Either you are ahead, even money or buried.

Then define "wrong". Do you mean the specific hand or your whole pattern is wrong?

What hands do you require to call in this situation? AA, KK?

Re: Deep 3/6NL: CAll all in preflop with AQs?
 

Why would you ever pass up a +EV situation in a cash game?

Because a better one will come up later? I mean, this seems pretty easy to me...

If you're not dominating him, which you might be but not necessarily, then you're maybe 70/30 at best. You wanna risk 2.5 buy-ins when you have nothing invested in the pot and are probably 2 to 1 or worst to win the pot?

You have the best position you can imagine at the table. A massive stack with a guy to your right that's using only an all in move.

I think I'm waiting for AA, KK, QQ, and AK for this. Your stack is massive and the blinds are insignificant. The advantage isn't that you can win a stack from him, it's that you can cripple him and be sitting there with 5x or more of a buy-in.

If he's behind you, it's a much tougher decision. But in this position you can just sit around and wait till you're far more likely to be a 4 to 1 favorite, which is oh so much more attractive than being a 2 to 1 fav.

- C -

Re: Deep 3/6NL: CAll all in preflop with AQs?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Please give me an example of a hand that AQs beats but is an insignificant favorite over. Either you are ahead, even money or buried.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's my point we are getting all in with AQs, which when all in preflop is probably not that huge of a favorite against villians hand range. Probably a favorite yes, but not a big one.

[ QUOTE ]
Then define "wrong". Do you mean the specific hand or your whole pattern is wrong?

What hands do you require to call in this situation? AA, KK?

[/ QUOTE ]

Did I use the word "wrong" in my post?

I'm just saying that the concept of passing up a small +EV edge to wait for a bigger +EV edge has relevance here. B/C it is a capped buy-in it is very important to have a big stack and have the fish covered, so we make a ton of money when we get in as a huge favorite.

Re: Deep 3/6NL: CAll all in preflop with AQs?
 

I believe this is by far the best strategy. At a single buy-in you could afford to take several shots. Deep stacked you need to have patience. I don't put my stack of 3-4 buy-ins at risk in this situation unless I believe I am the favorite unimproved, which I think is AA, KK, QQ. Not AK.

Re: Deep 3/6NL: CAll all in preflop with AQs?
 

[ QUOTE ]
At a single buy-in you could afford to take several shots. Deep stacked you need to have patience.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is an excellent point.

What are your thoughts on folding JJ /AK/AQs here and taking the risk of letting UTG ($1500) wake up with a hand and stack villian before I can?

Re: Deep 3/6NL: CAll all in preflop with AQs?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
At a single buy-in you could afford to take several shots. Deep stacked you need to have patience.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is an excellent point.

What are your thoughts on folding JJ /AK/AQs here and taking the risk of letting UTG ($1500) wake up with a hand and stack villian before I can?

[/ QUOTE ]

huh? if UTG "wakes up" I assume you mean he has a very strong hand. I don't think his calling range is going to be much wider than TT+, AK, AQs, maybe AJs and AQo? It's not like you're gonna want to be in a 3 way pot with him, maniac and your AQs anyway. Plus if UTG is willing to call here with a hand like AJs that you do beat, it's possible that he loses, and then you end up with a ton of money in the fishes pocket and a massive tilter.

Re: Deep 3/6NL: CAll all in preflop with AQs?
 

I didn't mean a 3-way pot. I just meant me folding my AQ only to have UTG stack villian on the next hand. Good points made about villian winning and having a massive tilter.

Re: Deep 3/6NL: CAll all in preflop with AQs?
 

this is a call... especially if its on stars (where you can use the rebuy trick to quickly cover him agian)

Re: Deep 3/6NL: CAll all in preflop with AQs?
 

was on party.

Re: Deep 3/6NL: CAll all in preflop with AQs?
 

i think you gotta call here, its just not too likely that he has you beat.

Re: Deep 3/6NL: CAll all in preflop with AQs?
 

Calling is the correct move I believe, but I have a feeling he has something like AJ and will spike a flush.

Re: Deep 3/6NL: CAll all in preflop with AQs?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How are these hands remotely interesting?

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not at all interesting. It's a very simple math/logic problem.

-Diplomat

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Deep 3/6NL: CAll all in preflop with AQs?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Did I use the word "wrong" in my post?

[/ QUOTE ]
Not you, FatalError.

Re: Deep 3/6NL: CAll all in preflop with AQs?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How are these hands remotely interesting?

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not at all interesting. It's a very simple math/logic problem.

-Diplomat

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]this is totally incorrect...
FWIW/ id call pretty fast fast. gamble... cest la vie... etc.

Re: Deep 3/6NL: CAll all in preflop with AQs?
 

Should have read the opening paragraph. Thanks

Re: Deep 3/6NL: CAll all in preflop with AQs?
 

[ QUOTE ]
What are your thoughts on folding JJ /AK/AQs here and taking the risk of letting UTG ($1500) wake up with a hand and stack villian before I can?

[/ QUOTE ]

It seems to me, that this is the point that makes this hand interesting. Clearly, you are +EV against this guys likely range here, and if it were just you, him and a bunch of tiny stacks, then it would make much more sense to just wait for AA/KK/QQ and have him crushed for his stack. However, with another big stack out there, you might not get the chance to wait that long.

Personally, I think I just beat him into the pot, and let the chips fall where they may. He's gonna spew off that big stack pretty soon and I want it so I'm going to go after it. If he wins, then so be it. But then again, I don't always have the highest regard for money when I play anyway. [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

Re: Deep 3/6NL: CAll all in preflop with AQs?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Clearly, you are +EV against this guys likely range here

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought so as I think the majority of those here do as well.


[ QUOTE ]
..if it were just you, him and a bunch of tiny stacks, then it would make much more sense to just wait for AA/KK/QQ and have him crushed for his stack. However, with another big stack out there, you might not get the chance to wait that long.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. Don't we all fold AQ and wait him out if we're the only big stacks? There wouldn't be much sense in calling with ace high when on average every orbit he's putting 2 1/2 buyins in the middle with whateverthefk. But since UTG(who surely has lowered his calling range against villian) is drooling to stack him, I took my chance before he could.

I called.

He had A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] and yes, he hit a flush. Dem's the breaks.

Re: Deep 3/6NL: CAll all in preflop with AQs?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Calling is the correct move I believe, but I have a feeling he has something like AJ and will spike a flush.

[/ QUOTE ]
Nice second post. [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

Re: Deep 3/6NL: CAll all in preflop with AQs?
 

[ QUOTE ]
He had A J and yes, he hit a flush. Dem's the breaks.

[/ QUOTE ]

Figures. That's how it would probably go for me too, but I still think you made the right play. Make sure to buddy-list him, and you'll get it back soon enough.

Mack

Re: Deep 3/6NL: CAll all in preflop with AQs?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Make sure to buddy-list him, and you'll get it back soon enough.

[/ QUOTE ]

I did and haven't seen him since.

Re: Deep 3/6NL: CAll all in preflop with AQs?
 

"Let's gamble" and call.....
Those words are KEY.