Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

My present actions are only partly determined by my past actions. I am a thinking individual so I can separate myself from my past, and also get influenced by outside sources, i.e. other philosophy. Sure, to a degree I am determined, I will admit that. But it's not enough to make me stop and think about it or let it affect my life.

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

[ QUOTE ]
My present actions are only partly determined by my past actions. I am a thinking individual so I can separate myself from my past, and also get influenced by outside sources, i.e. other philosophy. Sure, to a degree I am determined, I will admit that.

[/ QUOTE ]
How have you decided that your present actions are only partly determined? What difference does it make either way?

[ QUOTE ]
But it's not enough to make me stop and think about

[/ QUOTE ]
Sounds honest to me, but is that your idea of intellectual dishonesty.

chez

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

Because if you convince them to be a determinist, it was meant to be. If you don't, it wasn't meant to be. But what if you just slept in that day?

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

Just how literally are you taking this belief?

If someone is 500 lbs. because (among other reasons), they eat a gallon of ice cream per day, are you implying that they CAN'T stop eating ice cream?

If someone doesn't have enough money because they are (among other things), a lazy procrastinator, are you implying they can't change?

Are these people completely disempowered to change their way of thinking? Their views on life, etc? I'm sure I'm missing your point. Otherwise, you're exactly right. What a depressing way to go through life thinking you do not conrol your destiny.

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

100% literally. Yes, they cannot stop eating ice cream.

There is no logical way to defeat this argument (that I have seen). I will not accept illogical arguments against it.

You see my problem! (I feel guilty telling people about this and I would much rather never have thought of it).

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

[ QUOTE ]
100% literally. Yes, they cannot stop eating ice cream.

There is no logical way to defeat this argument (that I have seen). I will not accept illogical arguments against it.

You see my problem! (I feel guilty telling people about this and I would much rather never have thought of it).

[/ QUOTE ]
I still don't understand you point. If they have no free will they may or may not stop eating ice cream in the future. If they have free will then they may or may not stop eating ice-cream in the future.

In all cases it seems like their choice but may not be. How can you tell the difference?

chez

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

Maybe you won't accept illogical arguments, but would you accept experiential arguments? Just look around you, there's plenty of reason to think we are not completely determined.

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

If you have free will you can choose either to stop eating or not stop eating.

If you do not have free will you will either stop eating or not stop eating.

In the first case you can make either one happen. In the second case either one will happen.

Does this help at all in your understanding of how they are different?

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

You must have no confidence in the concept of willpower. I quit smoking. How do you explain that?

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you have free will you can choose either to stop eating or not stop eating.

If you do not have free will you will either stop eating or not stop eating.

In the first case you can make either one happen. In the second case either one will happen.

Does this help at all in your understanding of how they are different?

[/ QUOTE ]
I understand how they are different. I dont understand how you can tell the difference between them - that's what I'm asking you.

chez

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

I quit smoking too. Isn't it incredible? I am loving it : )

Quitting smoking is really no different from putting your shoes on, or talking to someone, or playing volleyball or doing anything else. You did it because of who you are the experiences / genetics / etc.

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

[ QUOTE ]
You see my problem! (I feel guilty telling people about this and I would much rather never have thought of it).

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, sleep easy. You'll have one heck of a time proving determinism exists. Hume will challenge you on the inductive side and the quantum gang will demand evidence that quantum events aren't random. Cause and effect is one of the perspectives we bring to the table, it's a rough one to show to be actually operating.

Your real problem is that free will requires determinism in order to work and there's no known way to prove that determinism exists.

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

[ QUOTE ]
There is no logical way to defeat this argument (that I have seen). I will not accept illogical arguments against it.


[/ QUOTE ]

Find one action that is completely random and determinism falls apart.

Stu

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

Free will and determinism are contradictions not buddies.

While quantam mechanics may defeat determinism is doesn't help free will which is the real problem; also quantum mechanics is such a small part of the universe (No Pun intended ha ha) that it's not all that important to consider for this viewpoint.

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

This may be true but it does not help free will.

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

You still have two problems ( given that you can brush away quantum, that operates on every atom in the universe as 'small')
1) prove that determinism exists.
2) illustrate free will without determinism.

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

[ QUOTE ]
You still have two problems ( given that you can brush away quantum, that operates on every atom in the universe as 'small')
1) prove that determinism exists.
2) illustrate free will without determinism.

[/ QUOTE ]
and I think its in trying to demonstrate 2) that you realise the whole free will/determinism issue is a canard.

chez

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

#1) What else can be?
#2) Free will is impossible.

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

[ QUOTE ]
Because of these beliefs I am ethically off the hock if I kill / rape / steal etc. Not only is it NOT MY CHOICE (because I do not have free will) it's not "wrong" because I don't believe wrong exists.

[/ QUOTE ]

It is detrimental to your well-being to kill/rape/steal etc. Your intellect should recognize this, and prohibit such behavior.

Simple.

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

[ QUOTE ]
You still have two problems ( given that you can brush away quantum, that operates on every atom in the universe as 'small')
1) prove that determinism exists.
2) illustrate free will without determinism.

[/ QUOTE ]

How do you illustrate free will with determinism?? If determinism is the opposite of free will, why then would you want to prove free will while trying to prove determinism?? Still no one has given an example of making a choice that hasn't been influenced by past events.

Also Kathleen, (I'm not saying you're wrong) what arguments do you give to prove determinism? (I'm trying to improve my paper on arguing for determinism)

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

Gravity causes apples to fall out of trees and ugly people don't have sex as often as pretty people.

What's that got to do with the price of tea in china?

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

[ QUOTE ]
<font color="blue"> This seems to me an unsatisfactory solution. What do I do? </font>

Design your life.

[/ QUOTE ]

Best answer yet. Good job.

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You still have two problems ( given that you can brush away quantum, that operates on every atom in the universe as 'small')
1) prove that determinism exists.
2) illustrate free will without determinism.

[/ QUOTE ]

How do you illustrate free will with determinism?? If determinism is the opposite of free will, why then would you want to prove free will while trying to prove determinism?? Still no one has given an example of making a choice that hasn't been influenced by past events.

[/ QUOTE ]
but free will and determinism are not opposites. Unless you can show 2) then free-will and determisim have nothing to do with each other.

I'm choosing to go to bed now.

chez

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

[ QUOTE ]
Gravity causes apples to fall out of trees and ugly people don't have sex as often as pretty people.

What's that got to do with the price of tea in china?

[/ QUOTE ]

what does this have to do with anything?

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

Free will and determinism are opposites. Free will implies you can make a choice; determinism denies a choice exists. I am wishing you a good night because I have no choice not to : )

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

My point was that those examples and his point were not on topic.

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

[ QUOTE ]
#1) What else can be?
#2) Free will is impossible.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's your rock that you've been building this theory on "what else can it be?". Er,uh, did anyone mention quantum effects and/or humean issues. ( have you been listening in on the ID argumente "I can't explain it, so it must be Y". cheeesh. :-)

2) you say "FW is impossible" .. define it, then we'll see.

If you're going to claim Free Will is impossible because of determnism then you have to show there is determinism else the only obstacle you've placed in the way of FW is unproven.

If you are going to say XY is impossible then you have to tell us what XY is so we can see if we can overcome the claimed obstacles.

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

Free will is the ability to choose between options. This is impossible.

Choice implies that either option can happen. This cannot be. There is nothing that could allow one option to happen instead of the other given exactly the same circumstances. We are controlled by our minds, which are in turn controlled by the laws of physics.

I have said this a couple of times already.

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

[ QUOTE ]
If determinism is the opposite of free will, why then would you want to prove free will while trying to prove determinism?? Still no one has given an example of making a choice that hasn't been influenced by past events.


[/ QUOTE ]

Laplace's Demon knows all the facts about the past and present and all the natural laws that govern our world, and uses this knowledge to foresee the future, down to every detail.

LaPlace's Demon never lies.

LaPlace's Demon says to you, "I know you are going to eat this bowl of ice cream".

If you could eat that bowl of ice cream but decide not to then determinism is false.

I'm sure I could abstain from eating that bowl of ice cream.

Stu

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

I agree with you up until your summation. There is no way you could eat avoid eating the ice cream. In addition to this, if you know all the facts past and present and all the forces, you can always predict the future.

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

Claim - Free will can't operate because of determinism.

Raises several questions before we accept it by power of repetition.

1) is there determinism? ( in spite of several strong arguments against it). If Determinism can't be proven than there is no obstacle to FW by this claim.
2)Perhaps Determinism is being confused with Fatalism.
3) Can free will operate if there is no determinism? If it can't, what's all the bother about determinism. Perhaps the problem is an ill-conceived notion of FW.

I'm off to bed. good luck with formulating your concepts, luckyme

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

My point gave reason and purpose to your problematic ethical off-the-hookness.

If that's still unsatisfactory, then you just need to accept your position and quit yo jibba jabba

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

[ QUOTE ]
There is no way you could eat avoid eating the ice cream.

[/ QUOTE ]

What is preventing me from abstaining?

Stu

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

Kathleen, you are correct, free will is impossible in a materialistic worldview. However, we are bound to pretend that we have it.

Chez has got it perfectly, IMO. The result is the same either way.

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

Please re-read this thread.

Good night everyone!

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
There is no way you could eat avoid eating the ice cream.

[/ QUOTE ]

What is preventing me from abstaining?

Stu

[/ QUOTE ]

You might abstain, but a determinist would argue that that's really what you were going to do all along anyway, so it does nothing to defeat his argument. Determinism says that whatever you do is predetermined, so whether you eat it, don't eat it, pretend like you're going to eat it and then throw it in the garbage really fast, or do something totally unexpected like stick your cell phone in the ice cream, you're not psyching out determinism. they would say that whatever you ended up doing, you were predestined to do all along.

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

f

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

You guys are (philosophically), WAY over my head on this one! I wish I had more time to partake in this thread. I just want to briefly say I'm a big believer in the pain/pleasure principle, i.e. we are primarily influenced by two motivating factors:

1. The desire to gain pleasure.

2. The need to avoid pain.

Every action we take is motivated in some way by our necessity to either gain pleasure, to avoid pain, or some combination of the two.

The overweight person who does nothing to change his/her condition remains idle either because the pleasure from eating ice cream is greater than the pleasure from being fit and trim. OR... The pain that would come from dieting and exercise is greater than the pain of remaining obese and out of shape.

YOU CAN CHANGE YOUR AXIOMS!!

You can be at your ideal weight. You can have exactly the amount of money you need. You can design your life exactly how you want it. There is give and take, but it is mainly a matter of changing your axioms on what you derive pain and pleasure from.

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

[ QUOTE ]
Free will and determinism are contradictions not buddies.

[/ QUOTE ]

Let's say I tap the ruby slippers and grant you free will. So, elated, you make a choice ( process skipped over for now). How will you implement it? You can't "cause" anything specific to happen unless you have determinism to rely on.
Free will needs determinism. And in more ways than this obvious one.

luckyme

Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If determinism is the opposite of free will, why then would you want to prove free will while trying to prove determinism?? Still no one has given an example of making a choice that hasn't been influenced by past events.


[/ QUOTE ]

Laplace's Demon knows all the facts about the past and present and all the natural laws that govern our world, and uses this knowledge to foresee the future, down to every detail.

LaPlace's Demon never lies.

LaPlace's Demon says to you, "I know you are going to eat this bowl of ice cream".

If you could eat that bowl of ice cream but decide not to then determinism is false.

I'm sure I could abstain from eating that bowl of ice cream.

Stu

[/ QUOTE ]


Determinism is the theory that all events are influenced by past events. And therefore, if you were to choose not to eat the ice cream, it could be because you were not hungry, or you were trying to prove determinism wrong. No matter what, there is something causing you to not eat the ice cream. By not eating the ice cream does not disprove determinism.