Here\'s a Hand
 

10-20 six max. I have 9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] in SB. One limper in EP (loose), button raises, I reraise, BB coldcalls (he is loose), limper calls, button calls. Four to the flop of 4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. I bet, BB raises, limper coldalls, button folds, I call. The turn is the 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. I bet, BB raises, limper folds and I call. The river is the 10 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and I check-call the BB's bet. How'd I do?

Jeff

Re: Here\'s a Hand
 

I would have 3-bet the flop and lead from there. Why the stop and go on such a crappy board?

- Jim

Re: Here\'s a Hand
 

I think I fold the river, unless BB is known to be loose aggressive, not just loose.

SGS

Re: Here\'s a Hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
I would have 3-bet the flop and lead from there. Why the stop and go on such a crappy board?

- Jim

[/ QUOTE ]

Overcards and a chance to see the action ahead if another diamond falls on the turn. Our equity changes a lot when the turn card hits the board.

Jeff, I play it the same.

Re: Here\'s a Hand
 

Don't you think if he played something like A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] btf, he will bet the river if checked to? He would probably also raise turn. Just curious...I'm not sure I can fold here. But I agree, it seems like I should be beaten alot. I'm getting 14-1 to pay if off though.

Jeff

Re: Here\'s a Hand
 

Don't u lose to Ad8c? Isn't the final board 10,8,8,6,4 (three daimonds)?

Re: Here\'s a Hand
 

Yes. Yes I do. I'm tired...sorry. But, you see what I'm saying here...if he has some pair/A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] combo, he may play it like this. Or even just the A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] if he's messing around. I'm not saying it's likely but at 14-1, I think I'm going to have to look him up.

Jeff

Re: Here\'s a Hand
 

I can see an agressive player playing a hand that way. I guess if I know the player to be aggressive then I am calling down, if he is unknow to me I am calling down, but if I just see him as loose, than I will probably let it go.

SGS

Re: Here\'s a Hand
 

I think you did eactly what I would have done.

Re: Here\'s a Hand
 

Given that the limper and BB are loose, would there be any merit in just calling PF with the intention of C/Ring a favorable flop?

Re: Here\'s a Hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think I fold the river, unless BB is known to be loose aggressive, not just loose.

SGS

[/ QUOTE ]

this is a 6max hand.

Re: Here\'s a Hand
 

i would just call pf and try to cr the flop.

otherwise, i like a flop 3bet but your way isnt too bad. i think you just miss out on some value when ahead, which you likely are on this flop.

Re: Here\'s a Hand
 

Yea that changes things, but it still seems as though a player would likely not bet Ad,6o on the river or any other pair+flush draw combo that we beat. The way this hand played out it just really seems to me like we are beat here.

SGS

Re: Here\'s a Hand
 

I think your mistakes in this hand started before the flop, and you compounded it by putting in a lot of bets when your equity started sucking. It all culminated in being forced to pay off on the river (which I think you should here). But...

Preflop: I'd likely just call. I don't know about building this pot 4 handed in the worst position when it will be too easy to get pushed off the best hand or pay off a better hand.

Flop is fine but I think I'd just 3bet. I see no reason to stop, this is your flop. It super looks like the BB has a decent made/drawing hand and the limper has a naked big diamond. YOu don't say BB is aggressive, he's raising you despite you 3betting out of the SB so his hand looks like a big diamond and an 8 or maybe something stronger, i don't think he's popping you here with middle pair.

On the turn the 8 is about teh worst card for you, I'm ok with betting most turn cards but not this one. BB might be going nutty here but his raise spells doom for you I think. Once CO folds however the chance that our diamond is good plus the size of the pot force a turnand river call.

I think the line I would take is call PF and bet 3bet the flop. Arriving where you did on teh turn check and call/overcall, the check and call but don't overcall the river.

Re: Here\'s a Hand
 

I would do this in a lot of cases. But here, I just saw it as the button isolating the limper with whatever and (even though BB was loose), a 3-bet would likely get him out where two bets might not. There is even the potential of getting the limper out. But even if that doesn't work, I felt strongly I had the best hand. That said, the call-checkraise favorable flop line is also good.

Jeff

Re: Here\'s a Hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think the line I would take is call PF and bet 3bet the flop. Arriving where you did on teh turn check and call/overcall, the check and call but don't overcall the river.


[/ QUOTE ]

Though I quibble with you preflop, I see your point. That said postflop, I like your line better than mine in some ways and felt my line was a bit "spewy" here. It's interesting to me though how different good players would approach a hand like this out of position. I think a case could be made for both aggression and passivity here.

Jeff

RESULTS
 

BB had 75o for the flopped straight. At least the diamond outs were clean...Anyone else really fold the end here?

Jeff

Re: Here\'s a Hand
 

Unless I'm sure I can get it heads up (and it looks like you can't), I'm just calling w/99 here before the flop. I like my realtive position and want to slip in cheap.

Once the turn pairs it, I'm check-calling there. If he has less, let him bet it, bluffing etc.

Re: Here\'s a Hand
 

I put him on an 8. When the turn pairs TP and the flop raiser has position, I want to show down the hand as cheaply as possible and go into check/call mode. BB called 3 bets pf so I wouldn't be sure your fl out was clean. I think there's something to be said for weak tight check/calling down when OOP with a hand you want to show down.