Drawing 2 up front in limit draw
 

As an attempt to create 5 draw discussion outside of the "Advice for draw poker online" thread, what do you think of this hand?

4 handed 5/10

Button is a little too loose, and aggressive after the draw. He open limps often, and loves to limp reraise his better hands.
BB hasn't played many hands and seems straightforward in the hands he does play.

I have TTTJ6 in SB

fold, Button limps, I raise, BB 3-bets, Button caps, call, call...

I discard 2 (?), BB discards 2, Button discards 1...

No help, TTT76

I check, BB checks, Button bets, I raise (?), fold, call.

Re: Drawing 2 up front in limit draw
 

Live or online? Was your final raise for value, or to get the BB out? If to get the BB out, why did you want him out?

From your description of BB, he had a set, or a big pair and kept a kicker. If BB did have a set, odds are that it was smaller than yours. From your description of Button, he had two-pair, but might have had a big straight or flush draw.

Assuming the button didn't improve, you'd make the same amount if you smooth called and brought BB along. If button did improve, you've thrown away a bet.

If this was a live game, did you have a read on Button?

Re: Drawing 2 up front in limit draw
 

I like taking two on the draw and then just smooth calling on the end. If he is betting into your apparent trips I would be a little worried. I think the BB probably had smaller trips than you and he knew it, hence the check after the draw. I dunno what the hell the button was doing. If he had two pair after the draw and didn't improve betting was bad into two two card draws. I dunno.

Re: Drawing 2 up front in limit draw
 

This play would make more sense to me if your trips were lower, and even then I don't really like it too much. You know you are ahead of the BB or he'd have bet, so I'd rather go for an overcall from him than subject myself to the possibility of the 3bet from the button.

If your trips were lower, then you might get the BB to fold higher trips by raising, and there's some chance you have the button beat.

Re: Drawing 2 up front in limit draw
 

To be clear, this was online at paradise.

From your description of Button, he had two-pair, but might have had a big straight or flush draw.

I didn't say this specifically, but I don't think a come hand is likely, he's limp reraised a number of times and it doesn't seem to be tilt related. Also, trips are a reasonable possibility for him. He's not too aggro predraw, but he'll bet after the draw with things like unimproved AA, and bluff when he senses 'weakness' (like you raise up front, draw 3, and check to him). He could easily be cluelessly betting 222 or aces up here.

My raise was for value, I felt I likely had both players beat before the draw. I was originally hoping to checkraise BB's bet taking Button along with him.

I think the BB probably had smaller trips than you and he knew it, hence the check after the draw.

This was my feeling as well. I wanted to get the extra vaue bet from Button while hoping BB would cold call with a hand I beat, which isn't unrealistic I think. Flat calling may be better (and its the standard play), but the possibility of BB's cold call, or conversely the risk BB will fold with a big pair if I flat call, make this a tough decision IMO.

I'm still curious about drawing 2 here, I'm basically telling every thinking player I have trips, killing my action against them. In what situations do you guys draw 2 in first position?

Re: Drawing 2 up front in limit draw
 

I would never do this if my trips were much lower at all, I'm trying to squeeze out as much value as possible without overplaying my hand (see my above post).

Re: Drawing 2 up front in limit draw
 

i dont think it matters much if you draw 1 or 2 - if you drew 1 and lured the BB to bet out you wouldnt be so confident about raising for value - you cant have everything - i think you played it well

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

Re: Drawing 2 up front in limit draw
 

Yeah it never occurred to me that the button could be discarding one to trips. It makes more sense to raise now to squeeze the extra bet outta the button as it seems unlikely that the other guy is gonna call whether you call or raise. I still like drawing two.

Re: Drawing 2 up front in limit draw
 

He mucked but the hand history shows he did indeed have trips - 444

Re: Drawing 2 up front in limit draw
 

well it seems that the bb probably wouldn't call 2 bets no matter what. more than likely all you get from him is one. i like the raise to try and catch 2 from each player. unless your goal is to punish the bb (personal reasons). the only problem you have is what do you do when the bb makes it 3 bets or even the button? (you can't be too happy with TTT). this seems plausable if the button is as loose as you say. the bb could have very well been doing the same as you(letting the button hang himself) with BIG trips. what do you do when the bb leads after you ckeck? are you still going to check-raise and then pay off the 3rd bet? i still like the play though.