JJ gets donked on the turn in a huge pot with lots of players
 

MP3 is 43/3/1 after 60 some hands. No more specific notes or read on him. IRC chat generated some disagreement on the turn so here goes.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) pokerhand.org hand converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB calls, UTG calls, MP1 calls, MP3 calls.

Flop: (15.50 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG checks, MP1 checks, MP3 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls, UTG calls, MP1 calls, MP3 calls.

Turn: (10.25 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>

BB checks, UTG checks, MP1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 bets</font>, Hero...

Re: JJ gets donked on the turn in a huge pot with lots of players
 

Seems like a routine fold to me. It's very possible you're ahead of MP3, though I highly doubt you're ahead of the entire field. I use to play frequently at pacific, and constantly saw players calling down with top pair hands.

In my opinion, raising is the only other option. Though, I think they're a few critical factors that make this fold, rather than a raise:

1. Size of the field/likelihood you're behind.

2. You have no way to isolate villain's weird donk bet, due to the draw heavy board.

3. Anyone holding a pair of Qs is rarely folding, even when it's 2 back (this is particularly true on Pacific 2/4 tables).

Re: JJ gets donked on the turn in a huge pot with lots of players
 

I think this is a good spot for a fold. You're laying huge reverse implied odds here even when ahead, which is really not all that often after you bet the flop and get four customers.

It is very important to realize though that raising here is MUCH MUCH MUCH better than calling, particularly as often we can take a free showdown often, extract money from crub draws that'll pay now but not later, etc, etc, etc.

So: Folding &gt; Raising &gt;&gt;&gt; Calling.

Re: JJ gets donked on the turn in a huge pot with lots of players
 

mp3 bothers me a lot less than the legions of callers on the flop. I hate this spot, but I can't imagine anybody dies if you fold.

Re: JJ gets donked on the turn in a huge pot with lots of players
 

[ QUOTE ]
It is very important to realize though that raising here is MUCH MUCH MUCH better than calling, particularly as often we can take a free showdown often, extract money from crub draws that'll pay now but not later, etc, etc, etc.

So: Folding &gt; Raising &gt;&gt;&gt; Calling.

[/ QUOTE ]

This was a big part of why I posted the hand. I think my bouncing between 2/4 full and 3/6 6m made me want to raise here more than it should have, and in retrospect I think folding is correct after getting all those callers on the flop. I wanted to post to see if general option was fold &gt; raise.

But also, I think it's good to point out just how bad calling is here, for all the reasons you mention. Specifically, I raised intending to fold to a 3-bet, and intending to check behind a huge amount of rivers.

Continued action:

Party Poker 2.00/4.00 Hold'em <font color="#0000FF">(10 handed)</font> link

Preflop: Hero is Button with J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">1 folds</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="#666666">1 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">1 folds</font>, BB calls, UTG calls, MP1 calls, MP3 calls.

Flop: (15.50 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG checks, MP1 checks, MP3 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls, UTG calls, MP1 calls, MP3 calls.

Turn: (10.25 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG checks, MP1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB folds, UTG folds, MP1 folds, MP3 calls.

River: (14.25 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
MP3 checks, Hero...

Re: JJ gets donked on the turn in a huge pot with lots of players
 

Easy fold. The chance you are ahead of everyone is slim, the chance you'll be ahead on the river is even slimer. Most arn't going anywhere even for 2 bets. Good chance someone just made 2 pair and will re-raise behind you. Dump it.

Re: JJ gets donked on the turn in a huge pot with lots of players
 

[ QUOTE ]

This was a big part of why I posted the hand. I think my bouncing between 2/4 full and 3/6 6m made me want to raise here more than it should have, and in retrospect I think folding is correct after getting all those callers on the flop. I wanted to post to see if general option was fold &gt; raise.

But also, I think it's good to point out just how bad calling is here, for all the reasons you mention. Specifically, I raised intending to fold to a 3-bet, and intending to check behind a huge amount of rivers.

Continued action:

Party Poker 2.00/4.00 Hold'em <font color="#0000FF">(10 handed)</font> link

Preflop: Hero is Button with J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">1 folds</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="#666666">1 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">1 folds</font>, BB calls, UTG calls, MP1 calls, MP3 calls.

Flop: (15.50 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG checks, MP1 checks, MP3 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls, UTG calls, MP1 calls, MP3 calls.

Turn: (10.25 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG checks, MP1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB folds, UTG folds, MP1 folds, MP3 calls.

River: (14.25 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
MP3 checks, Hero...

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, check behind looks good here. I can't see him calling with anything that you beat, nor folding a Q.

What small percentage of rivers would you actually bet, besides a J? Or is that it?

Re: JJ gets donked on the turn in a huge pot with lots of players
 

Strikes me as a standard fold even in a big pot.

Re: JJ gets donked on the turn in a huge pot with lots of players
 

[ QUOTE ]
What small percentage of rivers would you actually bet, besides a J? Or is that it?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd say it's precisely the J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. Maybe the J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] too but if I'm c/r I can't call, and I'm not sure any worse hands are calling a bet there. So probably just the J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], maaaaaaaaaaaaybe a non-[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] brick.

Re: JJ gets donked on the turn in a huge pot with lots of players
 

...checks behind because he raised the turn for a free showdown.