Two pair vs PFR
 

Ultimate Bet 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, CO calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls, MP1 calls, CO calls.

I'm tending to think raising KQo early is not a good play, but I've been doing it lately.

SB is maybe sLP-N; I think he's normally passive but he's been running well lately and has been pumping up his aggression. MP1 is sLP-P, generally calling any number of bets if he's going to call at all. CO is very loose, very passive, and not very bright.


Flop: (13 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP1 folds, CO calls, <font color="#CC3333">SB 3-bets</font>, Hero ...

Decision one. Cap it? I didn't think about it at the time, but CO would probably come along for two more if he had any piece of this, even a 2-gap backdoor straight draw. I think it's probable that capping the flop would slow SB down if I had him beat, but if he did indead hit then he'd call down. Now that MP1 is gone, I think both of these guys are here to the showdown. To be honest, I was wary of KK or QQ here, so:

Hero calls, CO calls.

Turn: (11 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero ...

Decision two. Raise? Cap if he 3-bets? Call down?

Re: Two pair vs PFR
 

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I'm tending to think raising KQo early is not a good play, but I've been doing it lately.

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[img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Re: Two pair vs PFR
 

Cap flop, raise turn.

Re: Two pair vs PFR
 

Hmm... I don't know if I like that much aggression. I think I'd cap the flop and if he still bets into you on the turn I'd call down.

Re: Two pair vs PFR
 

cap flop, raise turn, call down if 3bet

Re: Two pair vs PFR
 

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Hmm... I don't know if I like that much aggression. I think I'd cap the flop and if he still bets into you on the turn I'd call down.

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Why I could see villan play AA, AK this way a lot I think cap flop, raise turn call down if 3 bet

Re: Two pair vs PFR
 

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Hmm... I don't know if I like that much aggression. I think I'd cap the flop and if he still bets into you on the turn I'd call down.

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I was thinking this as well until I thought about the number of hands villain could be playing. If we just consider AK and AA-QQ, there are specifically only 6 hands that beat us out of 24. I need more than a turn bet to tell me it's one of those 6.

(After the flop, villain could have AK 12 ways, AA 6 ways, and KK/QQ 3 ways each.)

Re: Two pair vs PFR
 

I don't know about you, but I count KK and QQ as one way each.

Re: Two pair vs PFR
 

AA 6 ways
KK - 1 Way
QQ - 1 Way
AK - 8 ways

so you are head 7/8 and behind 1/8, I believe.

Re: Two pair vs PFR
 

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I'm tending to think raising KQo early is not a good play, but I've been doing it lately.

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[img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

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I like raising KQo from EP for a lot of reasons. If I get a re-raise I want some reads on the raiser. Table texture is pretty important too. A party .5/1 table will almost always let you get HU with this raise. If you don't think you can get away with it at your table, adjust.

I would be very interested to hear what you think of the table texture where you are playing.

I am with Davelin here. If you don't like it, why do you do it? Cool-aid?

-D

Re: Two pair vs PFR
 

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I'm tending to think raising KQo early is not a good play...

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Depends on the table, and whether or not I'm first in. Looks like you've got a nice, loose table, here, so this is a good preflop raise.

Putting SB on KK/QQ is too narrow, especially with your somewhat contradictory read. With CO in there padding the pot for you, you have to cap this flop. If you cap and he still leads the turn, I think you can call down UI.

Since you didn't cap the flop, raise the turn, and call down if 3-bet. You're holding top two fricking pair, and the odds of him having the other 2 of either of them are somewhere between slim and none...and, as we all know, Slim just left town.

Re: Two pair vs PFR
 

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(After the flop, villain could have AK 12 ways, AA 6 ways, and KK/QQ 3 ways each.)

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Uh, after the flop, Villan could have AK 8 ways (four aces and 2 kings), AA 6 ways and KK/QQ 1 way each.

Re: Two pair vs PFR
 

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cap flop, raise turn, call down if 3bet

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Correctamundo. No way you can slow down with top two pair on the flop. If you do, you'll be faced with a bet on the turn and not have a clue where you're at in life.

Re: Two pair vs PFR
 

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I'm tending to think raising KQo early is not a good play, but I've been doing it lately.

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i agree. dont do it if it doesnt feel good.

call the flop 3bet and raise the turn

Re: Two pair vs PFR
 

Open raising w/KQo is definately +EV, from early, middle, or late position. Just calling from EP with this hand leaves alot of money on the table. Facing a reraise, without reads, I just call and see what the flop brings.

Once I've got top two pair on the flop and SB comes out betting, I'm raising and hoping for a 3-bet so I can cap. Unless you've played against this guy and he's a rock you can't pussyfoot around with top two.

The turn's a blank. I'd expect SB to come out betting, and I'd raise. I'd only slow down here if either CO or SB come out with a reraise, and I'd see the river regardless of the betting.

Re: Two pair vs PFR
 

We are ahead abot half the time here versus sb i think. That said, I think the most effective line here is to cap and then call down if sb leads the turn. If we raise I fear we get 3 bet by better hands and or drive out the CO too often.

Re: Two pair vs PFR
 

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I am with Davelin here. If you don't like it, why do you do it? Cool-aid?

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I started doing it, then I started not liking it. It seems to be either HU against a dominating hand or a family pot. But that's selective memory, I'm sure, so I wanted to see what y'all thought, who plays it, what they watch for post.

Re: Two pair vs PFR
 

Keep betting the flop, get more of the CO's money.

Raise turn, call down if three-bet.

As far as raising KQ in EP, I've been doing it a lot lately. Limping in with it just feels wrong. When I raise with it, it's much easier for me to assign a range of hands to whoever comes in with me. I end up playing it pretty much like AK postflop, except of course when an A hits. Comes down to reads at that point.

Re: Two pair vs PFR
 

Im bumping this because I'm really interested in why people are so quick to cap the flop and raise the turn. What kind of hands do we beat here that 3 bet preflop and on the flop with a board like this, and then lead on the turn. I'm not even sure that AK and AA lead this turn after being capped on that flop.

Re: Two pair vs PFR
 

The only thing I like about the flop call is it keeps him aggressive with top pair, which makes him lead the turn so you can raise him here. So I'd raise the turn. A flop cap would have been nice tho, w/ CO just hanging around calling everything. Heads-up I'd like the flop call of the 3bet fine.

There are only two kings and two queens left in the deck, so he'd have to have the last two to have a set. If he's 3betting pocket 4's out of the small blind against a raiser and two callers, eff him anyway.

I'd cap the turn if he 3bets, but if he leads the river I'm probably just calling without further improvement.

Re: Two pair vs PFR
 

With AA or AK (especially AK[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]) I'm going to fire on this turn 100% of the time after getting capped on the flop. When Hero raises, again, tho, I'm going to slow down, unless I have a set.

This is why I said that Hero should slow down only if 3-bet on the turn.

Re: Two pair vs PFR
 

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I'd cap the turn if he 3bets...

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Having capped the flop, or not? If I've capped the flop an he's still 3-betting me on the turn, I'm just calling down. It's kind of like dealing with my kids: "I've told you FIVE TIMES that I have better than top pair!" "I DON'T CARE....I HATE YOU!!!!"

Re: Two pair vs PFR
 

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I'd cap the turn if he 3bets...

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Having capped the flop, or not? If I've capped the flop an he's still 3-betting me on the turn, I'm just calling down. It's kind of like dealing with my kids: "I've told you FIVE TIMES that I have better than top pair!" "I DON'T CARE....I HATE YOU!!!!"

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LOL...yes, I meant after just calling the 3bet on the flop, which is what hero did. Totally agree that if we cap and he leads and 3bets the turn we should just call down at that point.

I would have liked a cap on the flop myself, mainly because CO is still in the hand...I mentioned earlier that heads-up I might like a call just to keep him coming at me on the turn. Even then the flop cap might be better - get the money while you can.

Re: Two pair vs PFR
 

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This is why I said that Hero should slow down only if 3-bet on the turn.

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See, I think that slowing down on the turn to the 3 bet is way too late. By that time, we have most likely pushed out CO and we are almost always beat (anyone advocating a fold here?). I would rather pay 2 bets on the turn and the river for a showdown and keep CO around than pay two on the turn and one on the river when we are beat. Raising the turn may not even win us the most money when we are ahead.

Re: Two pair vs PFR
 

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This is why I said that Hero should slow down only if 3-bet on the turn.

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See, I think that slowing down on the turn to the 3 bet is way too late. By that time, we have most likely pushed out CO and we are almost always beat (anyone advocating a fold here?). I would rather pay 2 bets on the turn and the river for a showdown and keep CO around than pay two on the turn and one on the river when we are beat. Raising the turn may not even win us the most money when we are ahead.

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Would you slow down with a set of queens, here? The ONLY hands that beat you at this point are a set of kings or queens, and if you were holding a set of queens it's MORE LIKELY that Villan has a set of kings (6 possible hands) than that he has a set of kings or queens, here (2 possible hands).

And, while I like having CO padding the pot, I'd rather take money from the player that's playing back at me than hope that CO keeps calling with his ace-jackoff.

Re: Two pair vs PFR
 

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This is why I said that Hero should slow down only if 3-bet on the turn.

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See, I think that slowing down on the turn to the 3 bet is way too late. By that time, we have most likely pushed out CO and we are almost always beat (anyone advocating a fold here?). I would rather pay 2 bets on the turn and the river for a showdown and keep CO around than pay two on the turn and one on the river when we are beat. Raising the turn may not even win us the most money when we are ahead.

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But I believe the point is that most often we are not beat. We're losing only to KK or QQ here. I agree with the raise and slowdown only to the 3-bet on the turn. You're right that we lose more money when this happens, but there are only 2 hands out there that beat us.

Re: Two pair vs PFR
 

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I don't know about you, but I count KK and QQ as one way each.

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Just catching up on my post from last night.

I am indeed an idiot. After the flop, villain could have AK 8 ways, (only 2 kings left) AA 6 ways, (all 4 aces are theoretically still out), and KK and QQ each once. (Since we have one of each.) So it's even better - we're only behind 2 hands and ahead of 14.

And here I thought I was giving such a convicing argument. [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

Re: Two pair vs PFR
 

We are only behind versus QQ and KK, yes, but AK and AA are the only hands that we are ahead against as well.

Re: Two pair vs PFR
 

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We are only behind versus QQ and KK, yes, but AK and AA are the only hands that we are ahead against as well.

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Right, but what I meant was that there are only two total ways to have KK/QQ, while there are 14 remaining ways to have AK/AA.

Re: Two pair vs PFR
 

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Cap flop, raise turn.

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Re: Two pair vs PFR
 

Yes, we are ahead so many times in this spot that it would take an extraordinary amount of pushback (say, a turn 3-bet) before I slowed down. Don't forget the extra money from the CO. This is a hugely profitable situation, so push.