Amusing AKs hand
 

UTG is a little LAGgy. He likes betting his draws and has been caught bet-folding the turn a couple times, making me believe that he's probably bluffing in a few spots. He keeps hitting his 5-out draws to two pair and trips on me. Everyone else is new to the table (within 10 hands).

Paradise Poker 1/2 Hold'em (5 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is BB with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG calls, MP calls, Button calls, SB completes, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG calls, MP calls, Button calls, SB calls.

Flop: (10 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero ...

Re: Amusing AKs hand
 

You're just begging somebody to say "bet and hope UTG raises". OK I'll bite.

Re: Amusing AKs hand
 

OK I'll bite too. I almost always lead out here unless I'm checking just to vary my play...

Re: Amusing AKs hand
 

This is interesting. I almost never lead out this with:
no position,
many opponents,
very coordinated flop.
Can betting out be a good move?

Re: Amusing AKs hand
 

I never lead out here - check:

1. you don't have the best hand 99% of the time
2. there's 4 others on a draw-heavy board - you're not folding everyone
3. you don't want to pay two bets to see the turn (if it's two coming back you're probably folding, but have to call if you bet and get raised)

Re: Amusing AKs hand
 

*grunch*

agree with the others, you might get 1 fold here but 2 and maybe 3 are staying around. No one had to call 2 cold to get in so it's much more difficult to put a range on the hands that might be out against you. Out of position with a draw heavy flop, I don't bet here either.

Re: Amusing AKs hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
I never lead out here - check:

1. you don't have the best hand 99% of the time
2. there's 4 others on a draw-heavy board - you're not folding everyone
3. you don't want to pay two bets to see the turn (if it's two coming back you're probably folding, but have to call if you bet and get raised)

[/ QUOTE ]

The key is that UTG is the most likely guy to raise and we may have a better hand than him.
We might not get everyone to fold, but we could very well fold hands we want to fold. If 96 coldcalls it's not a big deal, but if A7 folds because they're facing 2 cold that's a huge plus for us.

Re: Amusing AKs hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
*grunch*

agree with the others

[/ QUOTE ]

[img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Re: Amusing AKs hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
*grunch*

agree with the others

[/ QUOTE ]

[img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

I agreed with what previous posters had said, what's to be confused about?

Re: Amusing AKs hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
*grunch*

agree with the others

[/ QUOTE ]

[img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

I agreed with what previous posters had said, what's to be confused about?

[/ QUOTE ]

That contradicts *grunch*

Re: Amusing AKs hand
 

LOL. Caught!

Re: Amusing AKs hand
 

Betting is bankroll suicide. Even if UTG cooperates and raises, there are a large number of draws out there for the other players to have, and I don't expect to get heads up with the whole family involved.

Paradise Poker 1/2 Hold'em (5 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is BB with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG calls, MP calls, Button calls, SB completes, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG calls, MP calls, Button calls, SB calls.

Flop: (10 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, MP calls, Button calls, SB calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (7.50 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero ...

Re: Amusing AKs hand
 

check-call?

Re: Amusing AKs hand
 

c/c no fold equity nice draw.

Re: Amusing AKs hand
 

yaar, check/call. keep 'em in if it hits.

Re: Amusing AKs hand
 

The turn is pretty easy after you see how the flop went down. Betting as a semi-bluff is bad as I almost certainly won't take it down, I'd be unhappy if LAGgy raised me, and it's basically a stupid thing to do in a multiway pot.

Paradise Poker 1/2 Hold'em (5 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is BB with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG calls, MP calls, Button calls, SB completes, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG calls, MP calls, Button calls, SB calls.

Flop: (10 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, MP calls, Button calls, SB calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (7.50 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, MP folds, Button calls, SB calls, Hero calls.

River: (11.50 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero ...

Re: Amusing AKs hand
 

I suck at this part. I would just bet out. C/R looks nice, but I am not sure if anyone is going to bet for us.

Re: Amusing AKs hand
 

check-raise , get more players trapped in - even can reraise someone who thinks his trips 9 are good.

Re: Amusing AKs hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I never lead out here - check:

1. you don't have the best hand 99% of the time
2. there's 4 others on a draw-heavy board - you're not folding everyone
3. you don't want to pay two bets to see the turn (if it's two coming back you're probably folding, but have to call if you bet and get raised)

[/ QUOTE ]

The key is that UTG is the most likely guy to raise and we may have a better hand than him.
We might not get everyone to fold, but we could very well fold hands we want to fold. If 96 coldcalls it's not a big deal, but if A7 folds because they're facing 2 cold that's a huge plus for us.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't have that much faith in UTG raising our flop bet anywhere near often enough to make this play - but it's an interesting view

Re: Amusing AKs hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
*grunch*

agree with the others

[/ QUOTE ]

[img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

I agreed with what previous posters had said, what's to be confused about?

[/ QUOTE ]

The whole point of grunching is to not read other replies before posting.


[img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Re: Amusing AKs hand
 

Bet/call because you like money and hate getting three bet on a checkraise (if it even gets bet).

Nice hand by the way. I bet the flop WAY too many times in these situations.

Re: Amusing AKs hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
*grunch*

agree with the others

[/ QUOTE ]

[img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

I agreed with what previous posters had said, what's to be confused about?

[/ QUOTE ]

The whole point of grunching is to not read other replies before posting.


[img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah well besides that [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I know I know, I screwed up on that part, but already had it in my head what my thoughts were.

Re: Amusing AKs hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
Betting is bankroll suicide. Even if UTG cooperates and raises, there are a large number of draws out there for the other players to have, and I don't expect to get heads up with the whole family involved.


[/ QUOTE ]

B/R suicide - meh. Even if UTG doesn't "cooperate" what is the risk? You're still paying 1 SB to see the turn when you check/call. Am I being results-oriented? I don't think so - isn't an unknown, likely passive 1/2 player much more likely to bet when checked to than he is to raise a flop bet from a PFR who raised 4 limpers from the BB? If UTG does cooperate and raise, do we care much if gutshots call? Is it not worth "maybe" risking 1 SB in a big pot to "maybe" fold a reverse dominating hand?

Re: Amusing AKs hand
 

You have to bet this river. The board is paired and the 3rd diamond came in. You risk UTG checking it down. This is what we're waiting for.

Re: Amusing AKs hand
 

With this many players in the hand the turn bet isn't as a semi-bluff, it's for value.

[ QUOTE ]
The turn is pretty easy after you see how the flop went down. Betting as a semi-bluff is bad as I almost certainly won't take it down, I'd be unhappy if LAGgy raised me, and it's basically a stupid thing to do in a multiway pot.

Paradise Poker 1/2 Hold'em (5 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is BB with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG calls, MP calls, Button calls, SB completes, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG calls, MP calls, Button calls, SB calls.

Flop: (10 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, MP calls, Button calls, SB calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (7.50 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, MP folds, Button calls, SB calls, Hero calls.

River: (11.50 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero ...

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Amusing AKs hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
With this many players in the hand the turn bet isn't as a semi-bluff, it's for value.



[/ QUOTE ]

It has value if everyone calls. You're taking a very big risk with lagtastic on your left.
You could put an argument in for a checkraise if everyone was to call after lag bets.

Re: Amusing AKs hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
The turn is pretty easy after you see how the flop went down. Betting as a semi-bluff is bad as I almost certainly won't take it down, I'd be unhappy if LAGgy raised me, and it's basically a stupid thing to do in a multiway pot.

Paradise Poker 1/2 Hold'em (5 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is BB with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG calls, MP calls, Button calls, SB completes, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG calls, MP calls, Button calls, SB calls.

Flop: (10 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, MP calls, Button calls, SB calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (7.50 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, MP folds, Button calls, SB calls, Hero calls.

River: (11.50 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero ...

[/ QUOTE ]

There's no where near enough action on any street to think that someone filled up on the river. I think you've got the best hand here 99% of the time.

I don't really matter whether Lag bets or not. You have to do the betting here.

The 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] hit enough hands here that there's a good chance it might get back to you raised anyway.

IN SHORT: Donkarooonnnnnnneeeyyyyy

Re: Amusing AKs hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Betting is bankroll suicide. Even if UTG cooperates and raises, there are a large number of draws out there for the other players to have, and I don't expect to get heads up with the whole family involved.


[/ QUOTE ]

B/R suicide - meh. Even if UTG doesn't "cooperate" what is the risk? You're still paying 1 SB to see the turn when you check/call. Am I being results-oriented? I don't think so - isn't an unknown, likely passive 1/2 player much more likely to bet when checked to than he is to raise a flop bet from a PFR who raised 4 limpers from the BB? If UTG does cooperate and raise, do we care much if gutshots call? Is it not worth "maybe" risking 1 SB in a big pot to "maybe" fold a reverse dominating hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

You're thinking about it wrong. The point of betting was to hope UTG raises and shuts everyone else out. But then you're putting in two bets on this street. Check-calling one bet is half the price, and check-folding if it's bet and raised before it gets to you is a beautiful thing.

Re: Amusing AKs hand
 

I would c/r. If you donk everyone may just fold the river UI believing you have the third 9.

I feel you gain more hoping someone either improved or tries to bluff.

Re: Amusing AKs hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
Check-calling one bet is half the price,

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't really agree with betting this flop, but if you were to bet it would be for hand protection in a growing pot. So check/calling one bet is just 1 SB, but if you succeed in protecting your hand here you may win a few pots that you would have lost otherwise, so it's not just "half the price." There are other considerations as well.

Re: Amusing AKs hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Betting is bankroll suicide. Even if UTG cooperates and raises, there are a large number of draws out there for the other players to have, and I don't expect to get heads up with the whole family involved.


[/ QUOTE ]

B/R suicide - meh. Even if UTG doesn't "cooperate" what is the risk? You're still paying 1 SB to see the turn when you check/call. Am I being results-oriented? I don't think so - isn't an unknown, likely passive 1/2 player much more likely to bet when checked to than he is to raise a flop bet from a PFR who raised 4 limpers from the BB? If UTG does cooperate and raise, do we care much if gutshots call? Is it not worth "maybe" risking 1 SB in a big pot to "maybe" fold a reverse dominating hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

You're thinking about it wrong. The point of betting was to hope UTG raises and shuts everyone else out. But then you're putting in two bets on this street. Check-calling one bet is half the price, and check-folding if it's bet and raised before it gets to you is a beautiful thing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Umm, well I seem to be the only one who wants to bet, so I understand the point of betting. I'm just saying that the "worst case scenerio" of UTG not raising our bet isn't nearly as disastrous as people are making it out to be.

Re: Amusing AKs hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Check-calling one bet is half the price,

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't really agree with betting this flop, but if you were to bet it would be for hand protection in a growing pot. So check/calling one bet is just 1 SB, but if you succeed in protecting your hand here you may win a few pots that you would have lost otherwise, so it's not just "half the price." There are other considerations as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

It won't be for hand protection because you don't have a hand worth protecting. In a 5-handed pot, ace-high is generally not the strongest hand.

Re: Amusing AKs hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Betting is bankroll suicide. Even if UTG cooperates and raises, there are a large number of draws out there for the other players to have, and I don't expect to get heads up with the whole family involved.


[/ QUOTE ]

B/R suicide - meh. Even if UTG doesn't "cooperate" what is the risk? You're still paying 1 SB to see the turn when you check/call. Am I being results-oriented? I don't think so - isn't an unknown, likely passive 1/2 player much more likely to bet when checked to than he is to raise a flop bet from a PFR who raised 4 limpers from the BB? If UTG does cooperate and raise, do we care much if gutshots call? Is it not worth "maybe" risking 1 SB in a big pot to "maybe" fold a reverse dominating hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

You're thinking about it wrong. The point of betting was to hope UTG raises and shuts everyone else out. But then you're putting in two bets on this street. Check-calling one bet is half the price, and check-folding if it's bet and raised before it gets to you is a beautiful thing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Umm, well I seem to be the only one who wants to bet, so I understand the point of betting. I'm just saying that the "worst case scenerio" of UTG not raising our bet isn't nearly as disastrous as people are making it out to be.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe I'm phrased my original comment in a confusing way. Let me use your words and turn this thing around a bit.

The "worst case scenario" is actually having the plan work! (That is, having the action start check-bet-raise.) You don't want UTG to raise in a futile attempt to shut out the rest of the field. You don't want to bet-call and have a 3-handed pot with 16 SB in it going to the turn. It doesn't do much for you because on the turn you're *STILL* OOP with what will probably continue to be a weak hand. Are you going to lead again? Will you check-call with ace-high and hope lag is on a bluff on cold-caller is on a draw? If you were lucky enough to be heads up, you're still playing ace-high OOP, which is a tough situation.

Betting and getting called all around is (in some sense) the same as checking and calling one bet back to you. But betting opens the door for bad things to happen, whereas checking opens the door for good things to happen.

Re: Amusing AKs hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
The "worst case scenario" is actually having the plan work! (That is, having the action start check-bet-raise.) You don't want UTG to raise in a futile attempt to shut out the rest of the field. You don't want to bet-call and have a 3-handed pot with 16 SB in it going to the turn. It doesn't do much for you because on the turn you're *STILL* OOP with what will probably continue to be a weak hand. Are you going to lead again? Will you check-call with ace-high and hope lag is on a bluff on cold-caller is on a draw? If you were lucky enough to be heads up, you're still playing ace-high OOP, which is a tough situation.


[/ QUOTE ]

C'mon, you're reaching straw-man territory. Nobody said UI AK is going to take this down. Yeah, if the turn card doesn't help us we're not in a great spot. Oh well - we're in the same spot if we check/call the flop. But what if we hit on the turn? As I've alluded to twice already, I think pair/gutshot hands like 96 are more likely to call 2 cold on this flop, but A5 and K7 will fold pretty often and those are the hands that are bigger threats to our hand.. So yeah, I'm not afraid of a coldcaller and I have no problem check/calling a brick turn with the idea that my overcard outs are more likely to be good.

[ QUOTE ]
Betting and getting called all around is (in some sense) the same as checking and calling one bet back to you.

[/ QUOTE ]

That was kinda my point.
Anyay, I gotta get to bed. Big day of crappy football games tommorow.

Re: Amusing AKs hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The "worst case scenario" is actually having the plan work! (That is, having the action start check-bet-raise.) You don't want UTG to raise in a futile attempt to shut out the rest of the field. You don't want to bet-call and have a 3-handed pot with 16 SB in it going to the turn. It doesn't do much for you because on the turn you're *STILL* OOP with what will probably continue to be a weak hand. Are you going to lead again? Will you check-call with ace-high and hope lag is on a bluff on cold-caller is on a draw? If you were lucky enough to be heads up, you're still playing ace-high OOP, which is a tough situation.


[/ QUOTE ]

C'mon, you're reaching straw-man territory. Nobody said UI AK is going to take this down. Yeah, if the turn card doesn't help us we're not in a great spot. Oh well - we're in the same spot if we check/call the flop. But what if we hit on the turn? As I've alluded to twice already, I think pair/gutshot hands like 96 are more likely to call 2 cold on this flop, but A5 and K7 will fold pretty often and those are the hands that are bigger threats to our hand.. So yeah, I'm not afraid of a coldcaller and I have no problem check/calling a brick turn with the idea that my overcard outs are more likely to be good.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're still missing the point. The plan with a flop bet is to hope that UTG raises to help you knock out some players. My point is that the plan is critically flawed from the start. If you pursue the plan it's in your best interest for it to fail!

Besides the fact that you're likely going to see hands like A5 and K7 coldcall on the flop (if you expect gutshots to call with 4 outs, then it's not hard to imagine pairs calling with 5 outs), you simply don't want to put in two bets on the flop OOP with no pair and 4 villains in the pot - That's a clear case of spewing. Of all the possible hand combinations out there, you are reverse dominated by very few of them (those few hands which you're arguing we should knock out) and you're trailing many many more of them (most of which you simply can't fold out).

Furthermore, I don't know why you're pursuing the "what if we hit on the turn" question? We hit the turn 6/47 = 13% of the time. Do the benefits of putting in two bets on the flop really help us out enough for the 13% of the time we hit on the turn? 87% of the time, you've got ace-high OOP, a bloated pot, and a very little chance of winning it. (By the way, I'm ignoring the flush fears and the fact that if you managed to fold out a hand that reverse dominates you that you really have only 5 outs.)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Betting and getting called all around is (in some sense) the same as checking and calling one bet back to you.

[/ QUOTE ]

That was kinda my point.

[/ QUOTE ]

You shouldn't have cut out the next sentence, because it adds the perspective which is missing when betting out:

[ QUOTE ]
But betting opens the door for bad things to happen, whereas checking opens the door for good things to happen.

[/ QUOTE ]

You've narrowed your focus to the one case where you bet and get called instead of broadening your view to encompass *ALL* of the reasonable possibilities. By betting, your best case scenario is the same as the worst case scenario of checking. If this is the case, why do you want to bet?

Re: Amusing AKs hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
*grunch*

agree with the others,

[/ QUOTE ]

hahahahahahha. Oh this was brilliant.

Re: Amusing AKs hand
 

flop, yeah check, but it doesn't matter too much whether you bet or check. betting is far from bankroll suicide. you're pretty unlikely to get raised here anyway (and if the lag raises you, you may have protected your [best] hand). the main benefit of checking is that you may get a free card with less than the winning hand if someone is scared to bet a weak one.

turn is duh.

river is a very nice bet and 3-bet opportunity. the flush came backdoor, so someone with a 9 will still likely raise your bet. ideally SB is planning on checkraising UTG, but there's still a chance that UTG or button will raise it up behind you.

Re: Amusing AKs hand
 

*grunch* [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

I don't think the AK hand was nearly as amusing as some of the responses in this thread. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Anyway, great post. I learned a lot on this one.

Re: Amusing AKs hand
 

Bets for value and to protect the overcard outs.

Re: Amusing AKs hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
Bets for value and to protect the overcard outs.

[/ QUOTE ]

PF:good
Flop:good
Turn:c/c = good. i don't think a bet here is for value, it would be a semi-bluff and you won't get 'em to fold. So the "semi" is removed, and its just a bluff (IMO)
River:bet this. Nut flush yeah!

When people puke out numbers like "you're ahead here like 99% of the time....." I roll my eyes. like oh my god! like really? what dirty cavity did you pull that fvcking number out of?