Re: At what point will conservatives admit Bush has gone too far?
 

If I was, you'd be the first I'd oppress. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Seriously though, there are no conservatives who would support any of the measures Elliot mentioned. He's clearly confused as to what a conservative is.

Re: At what point will conservatives admit Bush has gone too far?
 

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Why not much outrage?

3) Also as I said in another thread, these are temporary measures and there is absolutely no justification other than fear-mongering and Bush-bashing, to argue "slippery slope". We have very effective legislative, judicial and constitutional remedies if the government should be perceived by a majority to have gone too far.



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Isn't the whole point of having a bill of rights and constitution to protect the rights of the minority when those when in the majority think that it's ok to deny their rights "for the public good"?

This country did survive J. Edgar Hoover, but then he didn't pass any laws.... But he does illustrate exactly why it is a slippery slope, because when those in power can control the system enough to maintain that power, then what protection do you have from corruption?
None.

Also how temporary is a "War on terror" that doesn't end as long as there is terrorism in the world?

Re: At what point will conservatives admit Bush has gone too far?
 

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Except they are more petty inconveniences which the libs think are the road to fascism, because they can't get past their selfish "My" ("my" rights) to "We" ("our" common good and defense).

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Capitalism and liberty are built on the concept of ME over we. Are you a commie now? Lenin would have loved that statement.

Re: At what point will conservatives admit Bush has gone too far?
 

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If I was, you'd be the first I'd oppress. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Seriously though, there are no conservatives who would support any of the measures Elliot mentioned. He's clearly confused as to what a conservative is.

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I have never been more tempted to find an "O rly" owl pic.

So have you not been reading BluffTHIS's posts, or are you saying that he is somehow not a conservative.

Re: At what point will conservatives admit Bush has gone too far?
 

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1) I am tired of hearing the argument that other presidents and administrations did the same thing. Even if that were true, that is a poor argument.

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It isn't a poor argument - either the person using the argument is using it incorrectly or you're not getting it. The point of this argument is not to excuse the current administration's abuses. The point is to demonstrate the fallacy of those who use the current administration's abuses as evidence that their favored side would be better overlords than the current administration.

Replacing "R" thugs with "D" thugs isn't going to fix this problem.

Re: At what point will conservatives admit Bush has gone too far?
 

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So have you not been reading BluffTHIS's posts, or are you saying that he is somehow not a conservative.

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If he's advocating the things you listed (which I don't think he is but I wasn't paying much attention), then he's not a conservative.

Re: At what point will conservatives admit Bush has gone too far?
 

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1) I am tired of hearing the argument that other presidents and administrations did the same thing. Even if that were true, that is a poor argument.

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It isn't a poor argument - either the person using the argument is using it incorrectly or you're not getting it. The point of this argument is not to excuse the current administration's abuses. The point is to demonstrate the fallacy of those who use the current administration's abuses as evidence that their favored side would be better overlords than the current administration.

Replacing "R" thugs with "D" thugs isn't going to fix this problem.

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This argument is overused in all walks of life. Two wrongs do not make a right and previous administration behavior does not excuse Bush. Are baseball players excused from using steroids because others were doing it? Of course not. Even if other administrations did this, I trust the current one much less to draw the line. That is partly my bias, but I think many people will agree with that point. Bush and his most ardent supporters seem totally unwilling to admit a mistake. This is what worries me. If people keep justifying one thing after another, my question is where does it stop. There is obviously a trade-off where protecting liberties becomes more important than stopping terrorists. It seems like many are willing to go much further before drawing that line.

Re: At what point will conservatives admit Bush has gone too far?
 

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So have you not been reading BluffTHIS's posts, or are you saying that he is somehow not a conservative.

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If he's advocating the things you listed (which I don't think he is but I wasn't paying much attention), then he's not a conservative.

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Elliot is able to read between the lines and discern the fact that I am advocating Bush dissolving congress and ruling by decree, from the fact that I agree with the Patriot Act and some minimal restrictions on our liberties during time of war. I'm surprised the rest of you aren't as perceptive.

Re: At what point will conservatives admit Bush has gone too far?
 

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Except they are more petty inconveniences which the libs think are the road to fascism, because they can't get past their selfish "My" ("my" rights) to "We" ("our" common good and defense).


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Capitalism and liberty are built on the concept of ME over we. Are you a commie now? Lenin would have loved that statement.



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Hahaha. My thoughts exactly when I read this. Of course, commies and facists have a lot in common with the concept of the State over the Individual.

Re: At what point will conservatives admit Bush has gone too far?
 

I am not going to interfere in this US discussion, but I think that in most of these discussions the average citizen (not necessarily average "politard" [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]) is not aware that the current datamining surveillance techniques are incredible powerful and sophisticated (i.e. how many know that CIA are able to turn on the microphone on whatever cellular phone they would like to, and thus bug the room, at any time without the user noticing?). I think that if more people were aware of that, more scepticism would arise to how extensive it should be.

In Norway we had a scandal regarding previous extensive use of surveillance a decade ago. It was concluded that we are better off with less surveillance and more terror etc. than with maximum surveillance, and now the surveillance authorities' power is limited, but that's a judgement for each country to make (which surely isn't easy).