Trouble in early position
 

The game is the Wynn 4/8, 9 handed. I often have trouble with these kinds of hands. I used to fire fire fire, and now I don't know if that is the best course of action. A raise preflop in these games does nothing except build a pot, for if they were resigned to call 4, they were resigned to call 8. Therefore, hands such as the following are difficult for me.

I am UTG with 10 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]10 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
I look and think, hrm raise. And then, I decided to call. These games are very weak, so raising is infrequent, and a hand like TT is tough, because if I build a pot, then calling on the flop with a lot of hands becomes correct for these players. I also didn't want to become married to them and have to think about throwing them away when some tough flop falls.

First of all, is this limp bad, or am I thinking on the right track? I wanted a safe flop I could check raise to isolate or just bet out on. I didnt want a K or A to flop, and have the pot already have 7 BB in it from my PF raise, which everyone would likely call. I want a hand much better multiway or stronger for that kind of pot.

Anyway, I limp, and the pot is 6 handed. The board flops 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Blinds check, I check, it checks to the button, who I know as a player, and I know I am ahead here, who bets. The BB calls, and I raise to knock out the remaining players. the turn is another 8. i bet, both call. The river a clean J. I bet, they both fold.

Thoughts?

Re: Trouble in early position
 

"if I build a pot, then calling on the flop with a lot of hands becomes correct for these players."

Calling the flop is either correct or incorrect no matter what they think. Raise.

Re: Trouble in early position
 

there has been a recurring debate over the years about
not raising JJ out of the blinds. I am definitely not
in the don't-raise camp. yet in this case, your hand,
I think the way you played it is pretty reasonable.
I definitely raise JJ here. that's reflex. 77 I def
don't (in this game). TT is in between. maybe I'm not feeling it
because I haven't played in a few weeks (much to my
chagrin).

Re: Trouble in early position
 

I raise these hands because you have a significant advantage the equity against most of the hands that will call you. You just need to resign yourself to check-folding some flops when you get 4 callers and 2 overcards. But remember you're going to flop an overpair or set something like 40% of the time. It's nice to have 3 cold callers in those situations.

Given that you didn't raise, I'd bet out the flop. Most hands except flush draws are making a mistake if they call your flop bet.

Re: Trouble in early position
 

[ QUOTE ]
A raise preflop in these games does nothing except build a pot, for if they were resigned to call 4, they were resigned to call 8.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this statement, however, you are utg. Calling 8 here is a problem w/ most people because nobody but the blinds have any money in. I know it can be loose and frustrating in these games, but you have equity enough to make this raise.

This reminds me of a similar hand I played at a 3/6 table at a local casino.

I was EP w/ 10/10. Folds to me, I raised, mp calls, bb calls. flop comes a/4/9. BB checks, I bet, mp raises, BB folds. I think (or pretend to,) for 1 second then fold. MP showed a/4 hearts. It didn't work out that time, but ill lay a raise in preflop against this chump all day w/ 10/10.

Re: Trouble in early position
 

Crunchy made a great comment about this type of idea:

In tough games, it may be correct in certain situations (though generally not UTG), to forgo raising pre-flop in order to manipulate the pot in order to encourage opponents to make mistakes later (as big pots tend to forgive incorrect play).

Against loose, bad, unthinking players, though, the size of the pot does not matter much because they will consistently make mistakes anyway. Thus, we play in such a way as to maximize total value, which usually will involve capitalizing on immediate value situations when they first appear.

So you really must raise TT UTG, every time. (In fact, you should be raising this in tougher games as well...)

The basic fact is that any amount of money you "give up" on later streets by building a big pot and occassionally alter play is way more than made up for by your immediate equity edge pre-flop and all the extra bets you'll earn there.

Re: Trouble in early position
 

The limp is awful.