UM... huh? ps 10/20 deep
 

For some reason I don't have the actual hh, but i remember this hand almost exactly. Table is going crazy(most of it, villian is one of the exceptions he is vry good) as B-buddy has gone insane... Villain is a very good LAG who is one of the biggest winners in this game (i'll pm his nick i guess if ne1 wants to know) raises to 80 utg 7 handed. I call utg+1 w/ 8c6c, B buddy calls in BB.

Flop: Kc Qc Tc
villain bets 200 @250, i call.

Turn: 3s(i think... was a blank)
villain pushes- he covers, i hav ~5.5k left on table... WTF?

Villain would normally never overbet here, he is hoping for a loose call from me b/c of how the table has been playing (does he do this w/ set expecting me to call 2p). Villain obviously realizes i play tighter vs him... but i just calld 2k allin preflop from bbuddy w/ KTo. Am i ahead vs his hand range? thoughts? raise flop?

Re: UM... huh? ps 10/20 deep
 

what, unless he flopped a royal flush, theres no other reasonable hands that beat u
probably has a set n dun want u to draw for the flush

Re: UM... huh? ps 10/20 deep
 

i'd vomit all over my keyboard in this spot

Re: UM... huh? ps 10/20 deep
 

Well yea, the vomiting is obvious, but to vomit on the call or the fold button?

EDIT: I forgot to mention, villain is doing very well in WCOOP main event @ this point, dont know if maybe this makes him more action happy (he is action happy to start)

Re: UM... huh? ps 10/20 deep
 

I'd put him on Slick with the Ac, but.... such an overbet. It's like he raised it up with some goofy Ac7c or something hit the hand, bet it, and if you have smaller flush, this is great bet by him, because you call????

Except you fold, because he's got flush.

Re: UM... huh? ps 10/20 deep
 

hope its mis-click and call =0

Re: UM... huh? ps 10/20 deep
 

OMG this is sick.
i dont know if i am making this laydown...
generally overbets like this are the stone cold, but given the board, and his UTG raise (tight UTG raising standards, generally?), i just cant help but think black AA... what a sexy looking hand, yknow? even KK. i dont know.
great hand.
im thinking fold here, but this would be a sick laydown.

Re: UM... huh? ps 10/20 deep
 

I call. From villain's persepctive, if he holds A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (with AA, AK), only hand he should be worried about is J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], b/c he probably figures that is the ONLY hand that would smoothcall flop and not fold turn. Villain would expect a raise from any baby flopped flush I assume because there's 100 of blank cards on turn. I say you have to call this.

Why can't he have AJ?

Re: UM... huh? ps 10/20 deep
 

I know the player you are talking about and I have played with and watched him many times. From what I've seen, he usually pushes his big hands (Ax clubs here) pretty hard, however I dont think I have seen him make this kind of ridiculous overbet..seems more likey he has AAc or KK or possibly Ac10.

ZZzzZZzz

Re: UM... huh? ps 10/20 deep
 

if its vs JERRRY, i'd call..

Re: UM... huh? ps 10/20 deep
 

its vs. jerrry, durrrr. i reraise pf to take it down on the flop though but in the back of my mind hope bbuddy pushes and jerrry calls so i have odds to call to flop a flush and lose

Re: UM... huh? ps 10/20 deep
 

villain is craze / joker no?

Re: UM... huh? ps 10/20 deep
 

UTG+1, why did you play this? just curious.

Re: UM... huh? ps 10/20 deep
 

leave preflop alone, i had my reasons... I hope this doesnt bother him/any1 else but villain was craze9. He is good, very good (i.e. not stupid enough to do this w/ AcKx or something). He wants a call, but does he want it from my hand? Or is he pushing AcJx/KK/qq hoping i call w/ QQ/tt? I am 100% sure folding KQo would be profitable here (it would be behind at least 95% of the time). That being said, I have the 4th nuts, and what hands can villain actually have? (although he would open raise A2soot etc. but still not that many combos). AGAIN... huh? what do i do?

Re: UM... huh? ps 10/20 deep
 

I think you call this. Id feel villains ridiculous over bet means he dosnt really want to see much else. I can only put him on a big PP or possibly Jc9c, but even then that bet seems a bit harsh. Id vomit, then call and be happy that you just made a few grand ..

stew

Re: UM... huh? ps 10/20 deep
 

you put him on a straight flush because he seems like he doesn't want to see more cards? what interesting logic you have sir ;-)

Re: UM... huh? ps 10/20 deep
 

So did you make the call? I'm curious.

Re: UM... huh? ps 10/20 deep
 

im thinking you'll find AcJx here more than anything else. id call and hate it.

<------------------heh

Re: UM... huh? ps 10/20 deep
 

[ QUOTE ]
im thinking you'll find AcJx here more than anything else. id call and hate it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: UM... huh? ps 10/20 deep
 

[ QUOTE ]
leave preflop alone,

[/ QUOTE ]
why? isn't that why you are in this mess?
[ QUOTE ]
i had my reasons...

[/ QUOTE ]
i am sure you did, what are they?
[ QUOTE ]
He is good, very good

[/ QUOTE ]
more reasons why i am really confused with this hand. i am not being mean but i guess you are just a lot better than i am, i just don't like to be out of position calling this raise with the rest of the table yet to act.

Re: UM... huh? ps 10/20 deep
 

[ QUOTE ]
im thinking you'll find AcJx here more than anything else. id call and hate it.


[/ QUOTE ]

I would think AcJx would be unlikely unless we're assuming this is never a bluff and hero can call with less than a flush. I mean, how often does a flush fold to this ridiculous overbet? Not very often. How often does something other than a flush call? I'd say not very often...

to me, it seems like AcJx would be unwise for playing it like this, as he basically folds worse hands/makes better hands call. If AcJx is up against a set itmakes no difference that he has the Ac... the redraw only helps against a flush, but if he thinks hero likely has a flush he wouldn't make this move with AcJx. So while I think it is well within the range that he has the Ac, i wouldn't give him such a good made hand. If he does have AJ, which is possible, I would say it's AJ WITHOUT the Ac, doesn't that make more sense???

As for the hand, given you smooth called the flop with your flush, I don't think he gives you cred for the flush, especially if he does have the Ac... I would think I'm calling, but just because I'm confused and also a fish who calls too much.

Re: UM... huh? ps 10/20 deep
 

FWIW, i put him on AcJx/AxJc and you probably call and reload.

Re: UM... huh? ps 10/20 deep
 

After losing lots of money on monotone flops in the past, my current deal is just to keep the pot reasonable unless you have the nuts or a razor sharp read...

The core issues are:
1) there is nothing sneaky-good about an 8-high flush
2) he is a very good player making a monstrous overbet
3) monotone flops are easy to mis-judge if you don't have the nuts..
4) the size of the bet relative to the pot indicates to me serious problems

Enough said, fold and find a better spot...

Re: UM... huh? ps 10/20 deep
 

what percent of the time do you think you are ahead here?



let's assume you are ahead on the turn 70% of the time here, putting him on a set or higher [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. the other 30% of the time you're drawing dead to a better flush.

30% x (-$5500) = -$1650

70% x (+$3603) = +$2522

EV = +$872

If you add 2 pair and lower into his hand range your EV will obviously increase accordingly. In the heat of the moment though it's tough to call this push, thinking that you're ahead of such an overbet even more than 50% of the time, so yea basically it comes down to your read.

Peace.

Re: UM... huh? ps 10/20 deep
 

This post reminded me of a hand I folded/observed in June, same game:

MP raises to 70
LP calls
All others fold

Flop (170) = 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
Check
Check

Turn (170) = Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
MP bets 75
LP is all in for 2254.80
MP calls

River (4786.6) = 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

MP shows Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
LP scoops with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Similar situation for yours except the raise pf. LP had been lagging it up perfectly for situations like this one. Thus my trepidation to calling these massive all ins, and my leaning towards folding your hand (unless you think you're ahead ~60%+ of the time)

Results?

Re: UM... huh? ps 10/20 deep
 

what was the result of this hand anyway?

Re: UM... huh? ps 10/20 deep
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
im thinking you'll find AcJx here more than anything else. id call and hate it.


[/ QUOTE ]

If AcJx is up against a set itmakes no difference that he has the Ac... the redraw only helps against a flush, but if he thinks hero likely has a flush he wouldn't make this move with AcJx.


[/ QUOTE ]

How can the redraw only help against the flush?
If this guy has the ability to risk killing action with the AJ [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] or J9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] to preserve his image, vomit and pay him off. Otherwise call, vomit, close eyes, and pray that you hold up in the likely chance that he doesnt hold Ax [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].

Re: UM... huh? ps 10/20 deep
 

He holds the A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] IMO:

A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

a set is possible but I think there is a very solid chance he holds A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]...

Re: UM... huh? ps 10/20 deep
 

[ QUOTE ]
what was the result of this hand anyway?

[/ QUOTE ]

[img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Re: UM... huh? ps 10/20 deep
 

I folded, I talked this hand over a lot with 2 people who know villian fairly well and they were both undecided too... The table was playing very aggressively (because of bbuddy) People were playing too aggressively towards non-bbuddy opponents, and villain knew this, i think he was hoping that i would give out too much action as many other people were doing, however as i said i still am not sure that i made the right fold because he could have been doing this w/ Ac Jx hoping i would call w/ j9 or kk etc. After tons of reflection on this hand, i still have no idea what the correct line was. Craze occasionally posts here, i respect his game very much, and i would be very interested to see his thoughts on this hand. I was, and still am, baffled as to what my action should be.

Btw. the preflop call was because bbuddy had 5k behind too at this table... and he apparently assumed that any tp+ of his was always good (since he was allin evry 3rd hand w/ 28o), so it was definitely a +ev call preflop, and even w/o him i mightve calld (sc w/ 300x bb behind and position is a nice spot).

Re: UM... huh? ps 10/20 deep
 

I had Ac7c.

You really should have paid me here.