Against a thinking TAG.....
 

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, BB calls.

Flop: (4.50 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.25 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB calls.

River: (8.25 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="green">Hero???</font>


Feel free to comment on any street.

Re: Against a thinking TAG.....
 

I hate the turn raise. He is never folding a better hand or a hand that has more than 3 outs against us and you can't fold to a 3 bet. I would bet the river. Getting check/raised would make me sick but i think your ahead &gt;55%.

Re: Against a thinking TAG.....
 

grunch

3-bet the flop, don't bet the turn like you did. If he caps the flop then go steady after that.

River is close, and swings with a read if you have one? I'd prefer to c' as we aren't folding anything and I'm not sure we are ahead enough to risk the reraise when we aren't.

Re: Against a thinking TAG.....
 

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I hate the turn raise. He is never folding a better hand or a hand that has more than 3 outs against us and you can't fold to a 3 bet. I would bet the river. Getting check/raised would make me sick but i think your ahead &gt;55%.

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The object of the turn raise isn't to get him to fold. It's because you probably have the best hand, and it is the second half of the flop-call to get more money out of Mr. TAG.

He raises you, but you have TP with 2nd best kicker, and best kicker is on the board. He probably doesn't have AK, since he would have 3-bet that pre-flop. In fact, you're only behind an A7 at that point. If you 3-bet it on the flop you'll very likely only make one more bet per street as you bet, but if you let him think he's got control you'll get an extra bet on the turn.

His likely holdings are AQ, AJ, or A7.

This might be one of those rare bet/fold situations on the river.

KO

Re: Against a thinking TAG.....
 

Sometimes I play the same way. More often I 3-bet the flop instead of waiting to turn. Would have been interesting to know more about the player. Some players play almost any hands from BB knowing it´s going to be played heads up. Ax is then a possible holding.

Betting the river is a bit dangerous since u risk two bets to win one (If u´re check-raised u must call, even though u´re almost certain to be behind). So u need to be a lot more than 50% sure u´re ahead (2/3 to be precise). Think both check and bet can be correct. Depends mostly on your opponent

Re: Against a thinking TAG.....
 

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I hate the turn raise. He is never folding a better hand or a hand that has more than 3 outs against us and you can't fold to a 3 bet. I would bet the river. Getting check/raised would make me sick but i think your ahead &gt;55%.

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The object of the turn raise isn't to get him to fold. It's because you probably have the best hand, and it is the second half of the flop-call to get more money out of Mr. TAG.

He raises you, but you have TP with 2nd best kicker, and best kicker is on the board. He probably doesn't have AK, since he would have 3-bet that pre-flop. In fact, you're only behind an A7 at that point. If you 3-bet it on the flop you'll very likely only make one more bet per street as you bet, but if you let him think he's got control you'll get an extra bet on the turn.

His likely holdings are AQ, AJ, or A7.

This might be one of those rare bet/fold situations on the river.

KO

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A thinking tag folds to the turn raise often with a hand we have dominated. A thinking tag 3-bets with hands that dominate us or at least calls down. He is not playing a naked weak ace or king this way if he is actually a thinking tag.

Re: Against a thinking TAG.....
 

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I hate the turn raise. He is never folding a better hand or a hand that has more than 3 outs against us and you can't fold to a 3 bet. I would bet the river. Getting check/raised would make me sick but i think your ahead &gt;55%.

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The object of the turn raise isn't to get him to fold. It's because you probably have the best hand, and it is the second half of the flop-call to get more money out of Mr. TAG.

He raises you, but you have TP with 2nd best kicker, and best kicker is on the board. He probably doesn't have AK, since he would have 3-bet that pre-flop. In fact, you're only behind an A7 at that point. If you 3-bet it on the flop you'll very likely only make one more bet per street as you bet, but if you let him think he's got control you'll get an extra bet on the turn.

His likely holdings are AQ, AJ, or A7.

This might be one of those rare bet/fold situations on the river.

KO

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A thinking tag folds to the turn raise often with a hand we have dominated. A thinking tag 3-bets with hands that dominate us or at least calls down. He is not playing a naked weak ace or king this way if he is actually a thinking tag.

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What TAG does here would also be a direct result of what read he has of our Hero, no?

Re: Against a thinking TAG.....
 

If he's really a thinking tag and you know he'll fold marginally weak aces on the turn, I'd just call down. Otherwise you're forcing him to raise or fold, so let him bet the weaker hand for you.

Re: Against a thinking TAG.....
 

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I hate the turn raise. He is never folding a better hand or a hand that has more than 3 outs against us and you can't fold to a 3 bet. I would bet the river. Getting check/raised would make me sick but i think your ahead &gt;55%.

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The object of the turn raise isn't to get him to fold. It's because you probably have the best hand, and it is the second half of the flop-call to get more money out of Mr. TAG.

He raises you, but you have TP with 2nd best kicker, and best kicker is on the board. He probably doesn't have AK, since he would have 3-bet that pre-flop. In fact, you're only behind an A7 at that point. If you 3-bet it on the flop you'll very likely only make one more bet per street as you bet, but if you let him think he's got control you'll get an extra bet on the turn.

His likely holdings are AQ, AJ, or A7.

This might be one of those rare bet/fold situations on the river.

KO

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A thinking tag folds to the turn raise often with a hand we have dominated. A thinking tag 3-bets with hands that dominate us or at least calls down. He is not playing a naked weak ace or king this way if he is actually a thinking tag.

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What TAG does here would also be a direct result of what read he has of our Hero, no?

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Sure but i have a hard time thinking he thinks kwaz is a bluffing laggy moron.

Re: Against a thinking TAG.....
 

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I hate the turn raise. He is never folding a better hand or a hand that has more than 3 outs against us and you can't fold to a 3 bet. I would bet the river. Getting check/raised would make me sick but i think your ahead &gt;55%.

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The object of the turn raise isn't to get him to fold. It's because you probably have the best hand, and it is the second half of the flop-call to get more money out of Mr. TAG.

He raises you, but you have TP with 2nd best kicker, and best kicker is on the board. He probably doesn't have AK, since he would have 3-bet that pre-flop. In fact, you're only behind an A7 at that point. If you 3-bet it on the flop you'll very likely only make one more bet per street as you bet, but if you let him think he's got control you'll get an extra bet on the turn.

His likely holdings are AQ, AJ, or A7.

This might be one of those rare bet/fold situations on the river.

KO

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A thinking tag folds to the turn raise often with a hand we have dominated. A thinking tag 3-bets with hands that dominate us or at least calls down. He is not playing a naked weak ace or king this way if he is actually a thinking tag.

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What TAG does here would also be a direct result of what read he has of our Hero, no?

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Sure but i have a hard time thinking he thinks kwaz is a bluffing laggy moron.

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??? Ha! Calling Kwaz a bluffing laggy moron wasn't the intent. Doesn't Hero also raise pf with other hands like JJ/TT/KQ? If BB does know our Hero is Kwaz he probably folds outright. If he doesn't know this is Kwaz, why not c/r and lead the turn putting the pressure back on Hero and seeing what happens.

With 'thinking TAG' not 3-betting pf, I have a hard time putting him ahead of our Hero. Would he make this play with a QJs? Just trying to think of what BB might be trying to pull off here.

Re: Against a thinking TAG.....
 

I would have 3-bet the flop instead of the turn.

And check through the river. There is a 4-card str on the board which either scared him into checking or made his hand and is going for the c/r.

Re: Against a thinking TAG.....
 

The only hand a thinking TAG should be c/ring the flop with here is a monster IMO.

He should be check-folding lone 7s/pockets (that were too weak to 3-bet pf) on the flop because hero's range is basically a bunch of aces, a few kings, bigger pockets and maybe QJs that has 10-11 outs against him in a small pot.

He should be WA/WBing aces or kings here.

So if he's really decent the only reasonable hands I can see him c/ring for value here are 77, A7s, or a deception-pf-called AK. After his check-raise, I call down on the chance that my read is wrong, possible outs against two-pair, or a trickey bluff.

Re: Against a thinking TAG.....
 

If you aren't 3betting the flop, you should raise the turn, so I like it. I don't think the river changes anything, so fire away.

Re: Against a thinking TAG.....
 

Since you raised in middle position you do not signal a blind steal. The fact that the flop is super-scary, he chooses to c/r you and he bets out on the turn, indicates that he is confident of his hand.

Would you have folded to a reraise on the turn? - if not, i think you should have called him down...

Re: Against a thinking TAG.....
 

Grunch: My gut says bet/call, but my thinking brain is saying that this really looks like it could be AJ. I'm stumped. Wait, the fact that he's in the BB expands his range enough to make me wanna bet/call.

Re: Against a thinking TAG.....
 

Would you have folded to a reraise on the turn? - if not, i think you should have called him down...

This is backwards. You should calldown when you would have folded to a 3-bet. It isn't a complex theory, but it would take awhile to detail because it can be applied to so many spots. The cliff notes version is -- don't raise/fold when you have a strong hand and aren't likely to be drawing thin/dead when you are behind. This is the case in the hand that was presented, so we like call-call more then raise-fold.

This is a tough hand. Hmmm have to think about it some more.

Re: Against a thinking TAG.....
 

You should calldown when you would have folded to a 3-bet.

Actually, this was what i intented to write. I would prefer call-call. You win the most when in front and looses less when behind.

Re: Against a thinking TAG.....
 

I have thought about this for literally 30 minutes and I haven't come up with a good reason for him not to play Ax slow. The only problem comes in when it gets to the 3rd level or somewhere far beyond the scope of my thinking abilities. So when the villian says "he will never have an ace here", you pop the check/raise with A3 and he looks foolish when he value calls down with Q9 (knowing that you have 65s or something). I know I've done this and the guy had the damn ace everytime. But until you reach this point, it makes no sense to play an ace fast.

Having said that, most people will play Ax in the manner that the villian played this hand (even better opponents). If you are going to do anything before the river, I would start putting bets in on the flop. If you decide to just smoothcall, I would intend on raising the river. If he has Ax, you get 3 bets no matter if you raise 4th or 5th. If he has a draw, you win 2 bets no matter what street you raise. But if he has nothing, you win that extra bet by waiting. If you are looking to get paid by Ax or Kx, just go ahead and 3-bet the flop.

Re: Against a thinking TAG.....
 

Bradx,

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I have thought about this for literally 30 minutes and I haven't come up with a good reason for him not to play Ax slow.

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Having said that, most people will play Ax in the manner that the villian played this hand (even better opponents).

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Aren't these two statements contradictory? If we assume he's playing very well, why wouldn't he choose the best play?

I really don't like analyzing cognizant tag vs. cognizant tag hands because of this sort of 'hall of mirrors' effect where each guy knows what the other guy knows he knows they know. It seems to me that if we're doing anything less than several levels of thought here the thinking tag wouldn't want to raise an ace here.

Re: Against a thinking TAG.....
 

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I really don't like analyzing cognizant tag vs. cognizant tag hands because of this sort of 'hall of mirrors' effect where each guy knows what the other guy knows he knows they know. It seems to me that if we're doing anything less than several levels of thought here

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I suddenly have the urge to build up a resistance to Iocane powder.

Re: Against a thinking TAG.....
 

Just to really complicate the discussion, this was the real hand. I'm really on the button.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is Button with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">7 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB calls.

Flop: (4.50 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.25 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB calls.

River: (8.25 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 12.25 BB