Open Limping
 

Ok I was reading a post that recommended never to open limp. This really got me thinking as it is a part of my game that I feel like I need work on. What are everyone's thoughts on open limping?

If I have a hand that is playable UTG, such as JTs, QJs, does anyone recommend raising with these hands? I always was under the belief that these hands play much better in a multiway pot, so I should limp in a passive game hoping for 4 to 5 limpers behind me. I tend to throw them away UTG if the game is aggressive. A better example would be AJ offsuit, widely regarded as the cutoff "profitable" hand UTG. Is this an open limp or a raise? Or even a hand like 98s in MP if folded around to me.

I think I tend to play weaker in these scenarios as my preflop raise % is around 8%, where it should probably be around 9% or 10%. Any thoughts?

Re: Open Limping
 

Only if the game is extremly passive and loose would I limp with QJs UTG.

Re: Open Limping
 

I'm more interested in people's thoughts in general on open limping in EP or MP. If it's folded around to me in late position it is worth a raise if it is worth a play. I guess I'm not really wondering about individual hands as much as the general concept of open limping, if that makes sense.

Re: Open Limping
 

In a typical loose passive game, limping small pairs and small suited broadways (and maybe decent suited aces) is standard. When you flop a big draw you can pump it for value, and people will not charge you on the turn as the should when they should. Basically your strategy seems fine, mucking them in very aggressive games but they are too good to fold in a regular SS game.

The AJ/KQ debate has gone on for a long time. I think most people tend to raise it as a default, sometimes limping and sometimes folding depending, but I don't think it makes a huge difference.

Finally, to get your PFR up, you should probably be looking to isolate more if the game is tight enough to permit that, or else raise in late position with the aforementioned JTs/QJs hands. They have an equity edge multiway, so once you've got a multiway pot and especially position, raise'er up.

Re: Open Limping
 

The only time I would consider open-limping is with small pairs, some suited aces and small suited broadways in very passive and loose games. Other than that, next to never.

Re: Open Limping
 

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Only if the game is extremly passive and loose and filled with horrible horrible players would I limp with QJs UTG.

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FYP

Re: Open Limping
 

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Only if the game is extremly passive and loose and filled with horrible horrible players would I limp with QJs UTG.

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FYP

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You're saying you wouldn't limp QJs UTG in an average small stakes full ring game?

Re: Open Limping
 

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The only time I would consider open-limping is with small pairs, some suited aces and small suited broadways in very passive and loose games. Other than that, next to never.


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Only if the game is extremly passive and loose and filled with horrible horrible players would I limp with QJs UTG.

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FYP

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These seem to go against what SSHE says. Maybe I'm wrong or trying to "go by the book" too much.

Re: Open Limping
 

It's sinful to open limp in middle or late position.

Re: Open Limping
 

in the party 2/4 game I open limp 22-66, JTs, QJs, QTs, KTs, and some suited aces.

Re: Open Limping
 

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I'm more interested in people's thoughts in general on open limping in EP or MP. If it's folded around to me in late position it is worth a raise if it is worth a play. I guess I'm not really wondering about individual hands as much as the general concept of open limping, if that makes sense.

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Open-limping in MP or later, assuming you have any chance to take down the blinds with a raise, is terrible. And open-limping multiway hands, in a pot that is now unlikely to be multiway, is also terrible.

Chris Ferguson Thinks you shouldn't open-limp in a tight game

Ed Miller states that most open-limpers are weak

Re: Open Limping
 

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in the party 2/4 game I open limp 22-66, JTs, QJs, QTs, KTs, and some suited aces.

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I meant to say UTG in this post. Open limping in middle/late position is terrible poker except in a very rare cases.

Re: Open Limping
 

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Chris Ferguson Thinks you shouldn't open-limp

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"Why I never call as the first to enter a pot.

In tough Hold'em games...."

If you have a chance to take the blinds, then raise, otherwise fold.

Re: Open Limping
 

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in the party 2/4 game I open limp 22-66, JTs, QJs, QTs, KTs, and some suited aces.

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I meant to say UTG in this post. Open limping in middle/late position is terrible poker except in a very rare cases.

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Re: Open Limping
 

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If I have a hand that is playable UTG, such as JTs, QJs, does anyone recommend raising with these hands? I always was under the belief that these hands play much better in a multiway pot

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Unlearn this. These hands play well in multiway pots, yes, but there's no such thing as a hand that plays better in a multiway pot. Whether it's AA or 72o, your chances of winning the pot go up dramatically when it's heads up vs. multiway. And no, I'm not saying to raise speculative hands like this from EP every time (there are times when it's good to do so, but not often)--just clarifying your statement. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] Anyway...

It is okay to openlimp in a full ring game, but you shouldn't be doing it often. If the table is loose and/or relatively passive, you can get away with openlimping a lot of hands...things like small pocket pairs, suited broadway, and even suited connectors. The thing is, on limits above 1/2, you are rarely going to find tables that play like this (and when you do, you should be staying there until you have to prop your eyelids open). On most SS tables, the majority of these hands are folds from up front; on some (where the table is playing tight or you just have a killer table image), you can be raising with them. Some of the biggest pots I've ever won came on hands where I openraised something I would normally have folded from EP--55, or 87s, or what have you. Against even semi-observant opponents, the raise serves to mask your hand when you hit the flop hard, and you'll often get a ton of bets out of a strong second best hand (for example, 98s vs. 77 on a 6752J board).

Note that it is sometimes acceptable to openlimp from LP, as well--for example, you're holding a borderline hand like JTs on the button, it's folded to you, and both the SB and BB are insanely loose/passive. In this case, you'll never get the blinds to fold by raising, there's a pretty good chance your hand is not best preflop, you can easily release postflop if your passive opponents start betting, but you're also pretty well assured of being paid off when you do hit the flop.

In an average table session (somewhere around 100-150 hands), I'll probably openlimp once or twice.

Re: Open Limping
 

my pfr's up around 13% after 50k hands...

i think u should never say never. it's rarely correct to open limp but sometimes the game will call for it. for example, 55 or lower pps at loose passive will call for open limping at EP. esp in games where u're constantly seeing 4-5 limpers behind you.

usually i will auto-raise any mediocre hands- including low pp, when folded to in LP.

Re: Open Limping
 

People play so tight...

I regularly open-limp KTs, QJs, QTs, JTs, A8s, sometimes A7s, sometimes 66-77 or even smaller pairs at the right table. I would say that a hand like QJs I'm probably open-limping unless I have a specific reason not to, not the other way around.

For me, though, I only ever open-limp in early position when I'm trying to create a big multiway pot.

For reference my vpip is like 18.5 and my pfr is 12.5-13%.

-Will

Re: Open Limping
 

for refernce I'm a 20/13 filter for 9-10 players.

Re: Open Limping
 

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I regularly open-limp KTs, QJs, QTs, JTs, A8s, sometimes A7s, sometimes 66-77 or even smaller pairs at the right table. I would say that a hand like QJs I'm probably open-limping unless I have a specific reason not to, not the other way around.


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Yeah, that's what I'm sayin.

Re: Open Limping
 

oh yeah and the obligatory nate tha' great link:


you play too tight

Re: Open Limping
 

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I regularly open-limp KTs, QJs, QTs, JTs, A8s, sometimes A7s, sometimes 66-77 or even smaller pairs at the right table. I would say that a hand like QJs I'm probably open-limping unless I have a specific reason not to, not the other way around.

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I regularly isolate on players that do that. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

It is, of course, also limit-related. A player in a 2/4 game can get away with a lot more openlimping than a player in a 15/30 game can, assuming typical opponents for the limit. And at 2/4, the generic "you" are more likely to be able to outplay your opponent postflop.

FWIW, my comments about openlimping once, maybe twice per table session are on 5/10 full tables at Party; I'm much more apt to openlimp from EP on lower limits. And I do sometimes raise the hands you mentioned from EP, too. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]