Preflop: Hijack PP vs. limper
 

I'm interested in this preflop question in general but I've constructed a specific example to focus the discussion.

6-handed. Hero is MP with 44.

UTG (50/20/1) calls, Hero ???

The rest:

CO = 40/10 average guy
BN = 25/15 TAG
SB = 65/8 LP
BB = 30/20 LAG-TAG

What do you normally do in this situation?

What "it depends" items are important to you?

Re: Preflop: Hijack PP vs. limper
 

Fold.

I normally open fold 44 in MP. Having a limper (no matter how loose he is) only ensures 3+ way action, which is suicide for low pairs.

Re: Preflop: Hijack PP vs. limper
 

I limp behind maybe 5% of the time, raise 0% of the time, and fold the rest. I'd be interested to hear others answers too. I usually fold 55 and 66 in these spots too. However, I raise 66 on the button after one limper about 40% of the time.

Re: Preflop: Hijack PP vs. limper
 

1 more for fold.

Re: Preflop: Hijack PP vs. limper
 

Yeah, not quite good enough for a limp IMO.

Re: Preflop: Hijack PP vs. limper
 

given the situation you described, I prolly limp 50% and fold 50%. Raising really looks bad here as I doubt it gets HU, but it looks like it could easily be mulitway enough that youve got odds to fish for your set, and I think the TAG will be raising less often after 2 limpers, and same for the BB, so i think it wont get raised alot. So I go by how the table has been playing to make my decision, and how the people play post flop (i.e. how well will I get paid off if I hit)

Re: Preflop: Hijack PP vs. limper
 

Just fold and move on with your life :/

Re: Preflop: Hijack PP vs. limper
 

I fold because I think it gets raised pretty often

Re: Preflop: Hijack PP vs. limper
 

i limp or raise here.

Re: Preflop: Hijack PP vs. limper
 

i always limp this so im confused by the responses.

Re: Preflop: Hijack PP vs. limper
 

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Having a limper (no matter how loose he is) only ensures 3+ way action, which is suicide for low pairs.


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Huh? Isn't 3+ way action awesome for low pocket pairs? The only thing to consider here is how often it gets raised behind you.

Re: Preflop: Hijack PP vs. limper
 

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i always limp this so im confused by the responses.

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Same here. Haha.

Re: Preflop: Hijack PP vs. limper
 

I limp this pretty often.

Re: Preflop: Hijack PP vs. limper
 

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i always limp this so im confused by the responses.

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holla

Re: Preflop: Hijack PP vs. limper
 

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i limp or raise here.

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me too.

If the blinds were tighter I'd probably raise it.

Re: Preflop: Hijack PP vs. limper
 

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i always limp this so im confused by the responses.

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holla

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you guys are nuts... you have to raise here at least SOME % of the time.

Re: Preflop: Hijack PP vs. limper
 

I raise about 25% of the time, fold the rest, never limp SH in this situation.

Re: Preflop: Hijack PP vs. limper
 

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I fold because I think it gets raised pretty often

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This is probably retarded, and I'll be derided for saying it, but... I'm kind of hoping it gets raised. It's just irritating when I flop a set and everyone folds to my flop bet, winning a 3SB pot. If some more people get in the pot and it gets bloated by button's or BB's raise, I know I'm going to have tons of customers chasing their overcards/gutshots in a juicy, ever-growing 8SB+ pot. I also like knowing where the action will be coming from and having more information about opponents' hands. I don't have any math to back up what is nothing more than a gut feeling, but it seems like the more profitable scenario.

Re: Preflop: Hijack PP vs. limper
 

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never limp SH in this situation.

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why not?

Re: Preflop: Hijack PP vs. limper
 

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i always limp this so im confused by the responses.

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holla

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you guys are nuts... you have to raise here at least SOME % of the time.

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okok I raise sometimes.

but I usually have an image that would prefer a limp. maybe I raise when I've been card dead or otherwise getting lots of respect though, we'll say 85% or so limp though. I don't ofld much.

Re: Preflop: Hijack PP vs. limper
 

if we compare x people seeing the flop for 1 bet to x people seeing the flop for 2bet, in the latter scenario we need to make twice as much postflop in implied odds (assuming are pot odds are less than the 7:1 we need for hitting a set, or 9:1 maybe if you take into account the time you hit a set and lose). Sorry if that was cryptic i'm kind of drunk.

Bottom line is unless there's a lot of people in you'd rather put in one bet

Re: Preflop: Hijack PP vs. limper
 

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Bottom line is unless there's a lot of people in you'd rather put in one bet

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Except that with position and the initiative you can sometimes win it without a showdown, or your pair stands up unimproved against 1 limper's hand.

Re: Preflop: Hijack PP vs. limper
 

I muck.

Re: Preflop: Hijack PP vs. limper
 

i usually call or raise. pairs are super fun to play. sets are like my favorite thing to hit.

Re: Preflop: Hijack PP vs. limper
 

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pairs are super fun to play. sets are like my favorite thing to hit.

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I like this [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]. There is more to poker than EV.

Re: Preflop: Hijack PP vs. limper
 

can you tell me what situations a raise has merit in? it seems the only time a raise makes sense is if you have a very good chance of getting it heads up and the opponent doesnt peel overcards on the flop and he likes to play his pairs for checkraises rather than checkcalls.

those situations usually dont hold true in todays games as most limpers like to checkcall, checkcall, checkcall, they like to peel overcards and the BB rarely folds. so i usually default to just limping instead, almost always.

i start raising this hand from the CO/BT a little bit more frequently but rarely from MP.

Re: Preflop: Hijack PP vs. limper
 

no you're missing what I'm saying. The guy I replied to said he's hoping for it to get raised, not that he was considering raising himself

Re: Preflop: Hijack PP vs. limper
 

I play it and play 22 aswell here.

The will overlimp alot with 2 limpers infront and SB will come along raise or not most of the time. Same with BB. So I´m usually looking at 4-5 here, which means I can stand one raise.

Also, both the BB and the BTN will probably loose alot if both of us hit.

I´ve only recently stopped limping in this spot pretty much no matter what guys are behind, so it has to be very ougly for me not to play these hands when someone (bad) limps UTG.

If I expect it to get 3-way often, then I´m not too exited about this hand.

I checked PT and I´m 0.46/hand for 22 hands when I´ve limped 22-55 in MP. I have flopped two sets and won both.
Small sample, but whatever.

Re: Preflop: Hijack PP vs. limper
 

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i limp or raise here.

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me to. I totally thought I was a fish reading the first couple responses. I like a limp in loose situations and prefer to raise w/ a tighter CO and BTN behind me.

Re: Preflop: Hijack PP vs. limper
 

I'm not sure people are paying enough attention to the specific lineup.

If we limp, there is a very good chance that CO and SB will limp also (unless button raises). Button may decide to limp along just because everyone else is there. There is a chance that button or bb will raise, but if bb raises it doesn't seem to matter much since everyone will call.

On the other hand, raising against these people doesn't look too promising. For the button and BB appear capable of 3-betting. More importantly, a raise could prevent others from entering the pot.

So, with this lineup, I like limping along. But as a general matter, I fold. And the reason is that at most tables I see, I don't think there's as much chance that I'll get other people to overlimp, and there's probably even more risk of a raise.

Also, in a less quantifiable sense, I don't particularly like limping because I think it might damage my image a bit. But this could be entirely wrongheaded.

Note, even if I thought I could get this headsup, I don't know if I'd raise. I think that there is about a 30% that earlier limper has a higher pair than me. If not, he has connecting cards or Ax and is probably not the type to fold on the flop.

Re: Preflop: Hijack PP vs. limper
 

What are peoples cutoffs for raising here, 66, 77? Bigger?

Re: Preflop: Hijack PP vs. limper
 

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What are peoples cutoffs for raising here, 66, 77? Bigger?

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This question also makes me realize that part of the answer depends on my own image. If I have a tightish image, I might raise 66; with a looser image, I might need 88.

Re: Preflop: Hijack PP vs. limper
 

I'd limp here. The players do not seem all that wild as a group pf. If you were sitting a a table where hands were 3betting and capping pf a high % of the time... then I'd muck. If you expect to have to call 2+ (when it comes back around) a majority of the time, 3 or 4 way contested...then I think you should start mucking. You would then essensially be geting 4-1 or 3-1 a majority of the time (and an expensive 4-1 or 3-1 at that)... which is getting further and further away from the odds of hitting a set.

Re: Preflop: Hijack PP vs. limper
 

Agreed. With one limper I root for more limpers behind me. If there were no limpers ahead, I would raise or fold hoping to get heads up.

Re: Preflop: Hijack PP vs. limper
 

77 or bigger. Limp all smaller pairs.

Re: Preflop: Hijack PP vs. limper
 

Wow, I think limping is easily the worst of your options. 44 Plays like crap multiway and you don't have implied odds to hit your set. Raise or fold.