Stopping when you know you are on tilt
 

Ok so the last few months I have been really focusing on improving my mental game. I don't tilt too much anymore and have achieved a more objective, Zen state. I do things like not looking at my cashier for a week (this helps immensely!).

However, I 4-5 table 10/20 6max limit holdem and sometimes I'll have a 20 minute stretch where I just get annihilated. I'm sure most of you know how it is: everyone is putting moves on you, you're not hitting any flops, your image is horrible, etc. These quick successions of beats often put me on tilt.

My biggest problem, though, is not being able to stop when I have this sort of experience early in a session. I'll realize that I'm on tilt, but I can't really get myself to stop playing soon enough. My "tilt" is a subtle sort of tilt, like what John Feeney describes in Inside the Poker Mind. Making iso re-raises in bad spots, slightly loose call downs, etc.

I feel like I'm not ending my session for a few reasons:

1. I feel that, even though I'm not playing my A game, I still have a positive winrate while on this subtle tilt (I really dont know if this is true).

2. I want to make up some of the losses. I'll say to myself: "ok, I'm on tilt but I'm just gonna try to make up 25BB then I'll stop" or something like that. Sometimes it just keeps getting worse though.

3. I think I might be able to get myself off tilt. This sometimes happens if I win a few pots in a row, but often my tilt seems to increase exponentially.

4. When I sit down for a session I really don't want to cut it short. I'm looking to play at least 2 hours or crank out 700+ hands. Obviously this isn't the best way to maximize wins if I don't stop when I'm tilting.

I am good about not playing again for a while when I've just ended a tilty session. I'll wait for my mind to clear. My problem is actually ENDING that session! Another bad thing about this is when I let myself get more tilted it takes longer for my mind to clear after the session is over.

So my question basically is: When I realize that I am starting to tilt...how can I force myself to stop playing?

Re: Stopping when you know you are on tilt
 

[ QUOTE ]
So my question basically is: When I realize that I am starting to tilt...how can I force myself to stop playing?

[/ QUOTE ]


I will pay you good money if find an answer to that question.

My problem. "Okay, I'm down big. I'll stop at 1:00 a.m."

1 a.m rolls around. "Okay, 1:30 and THAT's it."

1:30 rolls around. You guess the outcome.

Re: Stopping when you know you are on tilt
 

For me, tilt usually results in me ignoring my hand reading skills and overplaying my hands. Once my opponent beats me in SD with a hand I was almost completely certain he had, then its time to pack it up.

Re: Stopping when you know you are on tilt
 

I think you have answered your own question Grasshopper.
[ QUOTE ]
I am good about not playing again for a while when I've just ended a tilty session. I'll wait for my mind to clear. My problem is actually ENDING that session! Another bad thing about this is when I let myself get more tilted it takes longer for my mind to clear after the session is over.

So my question basically is: When I realize that I am starting to tilt...how can I force myself to stop playing?

[/ QUOTE ]

If you continue to play when begining to tilt then the recovery time will be longer and that is less time that you will have to play your best poker then it is an easy decision that you are making hard. Just quit and come back when you can play. Admitting defeat durring a session is not failure, it is good poker. Poker is not a series of games, it is a total of all games you play. Basketball players can not play when they feel great all the time, they have to play scheduled games for the length of time required. It doesn't matter if they found thier wife in bed with thier girlfriend that afternoon, or they have a cold, or the morgage is due ---- they have to play. Poker players never have to play (except in trnys etc.) when they are not on thier game. Log off and comeback when you want to play good poker.

By the way this post is as much for me as anything. I have played for two months with this in mind and only stayed in one game when I should have gotten out. My account balance shows the difference too.

The next time this begins to happen I am going to change tables rather than quit totaly. I think that this last time I made it "personal" in this game and I could have still played better at another table.

Re: Stopping when you know you are on tilt
 

When I'm losing, I get bored. When I'm bored, I stop playing.

My "tilt" isn't as a result of a poor mental state, but rather, I see people making more "moves" on me than normal, so I assume them to be tricky rather than just hitting cards, and play incorrectly based on this incorrect assumption. Especially when another player c/r me, I'll think, well he saw me fold last time so he's making a move on me now. Often true, but I start thinking this all too often. Better to just leave the table when your image sucks, there should be enough to choose from.

Re: Stopping when you know you are on tilt
 

i have the same problem. i want to get back to even as soon as possible, open up another table or 2. and get a sense of entitlement, that i deserve to win every pot i'm a favorite in.

i think we have to recognize when this is happening and immediately stop. easier said than done though.

Re: Stopping when you know you are on tilt
 

Stopping play when you recognize tilt is an intermediate level technique. Learning to recognize it and adjust yourself back to your normal game is an advanced technique. Recognizing a tilt play and going on with your normal, strong play is expert technique.

I'm to the point where I can pull of the advanced play sometimes, and the expert play on rare occasion. I still rely on stopping play more often than not.

Re: Stopping when you know you are on tilt
 

Tilt as of right now is the single biggest hole in my game. Over the past 3-4 months I have worked hard to either log off when im tilting or work through it and get back into my game. As of the last month I can notice when I'm starting to tilt. Like some others said I can feel other people pulling moves on me and try to play back with subpar hands.

Re: Stopping when you know you are on tilt
 

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Admitting defeat during a session is not failure, it is good poker.

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Good stuff. Now if only I could apply it at the tables all the time...

Re: Stopping when you know you are on tilt
 

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It doesn't matter if they found thier wife in bed with thier girlfriend that afternoon,

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Since when is THAT a problem??

Re: Stopping when you know you are on tilt
 

Barry Greenstien's book talks about this several times. He has some good advice he uses.

One was when he recognizes he's playing bad, he gets up and goes to the bathroom and washes his face. He looks in the mirror and talks to himself...he says "If you don't start playing better, you have to quit." And if he doesn't play better, he actually does quit.

Another one was when he's on tilt and he needs to quit, he tells himself "This is what differs you from them. When you're stuck, you can quit. When they're stuck, they won't be able to quit, and that's when you'll get your revenge."

Those quotes are paraphrased a bit, but you get the idea. It works for him, maybe it can help you.

Re: Stopping when you know you are on tilt
 

Seriously though.....

The absolute best way to combat tilt is to not let it happen at all. If that's not possible, then the 2nd best way is to recognize it and....get up, splash some cold water on your face, get something to eat, walk around, and come back later.

The thing about tilt is that it's a side effect to many issues, not just losing streaks or bad beats. For the most part, it occurs when the money means something. We're all guilty of it to a certain degree.

Imagine this....

You're playing 10/20 with a $500,000 bankroll. You make a steady 15k-20k a month from the game. Tilt is virtually non-existant. Nothing can puncture you. You're just going through the motions at this point and playing hands. Poker isn't fun anymore, it's a job now. THAT's what tiltless poker is like.

Unfortunately, the above example isn't realistic because anyone who has a $500,000 poker roll won't be satisfied with making 15k-20k a month playing 10/20. But still, there is always an optimal limit and earn for an infinite bankroll online. For party games, it looks to be 30/60 full.

Quitting is an escape that bypasses the tilt problem, but doesn't alleviate us from the psychological root of the issue; tilt is the result of a "gambling mentality" (the need to get even, the emotional effect of losing money, etc.) and the only real way to fight it is to not let it happen at all. Get to the point where poker is 100% robotic and no win/loss can emotionally affect you in the least. Use your 10/20 bankroll to 10-table $0.50/$1.00 full ring for a bit and you'll know what it's like to experience tilt-proof poker.

Of course, we still want a certain amount of calculated risk in order to maximize our potential earn. The key is finding a way to be able to keep that tiltless mentality at all times. You can quit all you want to avoid the issue, but there will come a day where you'll have to confront the actual problem face to face.

And from that point on poker will be much more peaceful, relaxing and profitable.

Good Luck! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Stopping when you know you are on tilt
 

You make some great points that I am going to remember. This one in particular. [ QUOTE ]
Quitting is an escape that bypasses the tilt problem, but doesn't alleviate us from the psychological root of the issue; tilt is the result of a "gambling mentality" (the need to get even, the emotional effect of losing money, etc.) and the only real way to fight it is to not let it happen at all.

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I have to wonder about what I think your post is saying. Are you saying that to play tiltless poker you must not enjoy it, make it a job, and remove the emotion from it? You then say that once you accomplish this you will be much more peaceful, relaxed, and playing more profitably. How can this be? As much as I hate the sorrow of poker and how cruel the cards can be I do enjoy an occasionial full house.

If we make poker bland then why play at all?

Re: Stopping when you know you are on tilt
 

Emotion and tilt need each other to successfully co-exist. The reason we don't notice tilt when playing very small stakes is simple:

The stakes of the game and the money at risk isn't significant enough to have a psychological impact on our emotions. Therefore, losing won't bother us as much and winning won't make us feel as good. Hence, the tilt factory is so miniscule that we won't be able to notice it having an effect on our earn.

[ QUOTE ]
If we make poker bland then why play at all?

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That all depends on the reason you play poker. If you play strictly to earn a living, then yes, it should be bland. If you play strictly for enjoyment, then it should be fun and exciting (tilting included).

If it's a combination of both (for most of us it is), then there needs to be a comfortable happy medium for each of us. That comfort level will vary from person to person.

Re: Stopping when you know you are on tilt
 

excellent posts, thanks.

Re: Stopping when you know you are on tilt
 

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Quote:
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It doesn't matter if they found thier wife in bed with thier girlfriend that afternoon,


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Since when is THAT a problem??

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I thought EXACTLY the same thing!

Re: Stopping when you know you are on tilt
 

The more I read about and understand odds and variance, the less I'm likely to tilt. The two plus two forums have helped me immensely in this regard.

I think the best thing you can do to avoid tilt is to mentally prepare yourself BEFORE sitting down to play. Every serious player should have a checklist handy. How's my attitude? Am I tired? Impatient? Grouchy?

I think it pays off to have a brief mental conversation with yourself. I tend to reenforce in my own mind how important it is to play with both discipline and fearlessness. Having a mantra can also help. Usually I tell myself that I will play to the best of my ability regardless of results, that I will focus on every hand and, win or lose, learn something from the session.

Once you do find yourself on tilt, I think the best thing you can do is take a 15 minute break. Sometimes taking a brief walk can help. This time can be used to make an honest assessment of whether or not you are capable of returning to the game and playing your A game.

Of course, I only play as a hobby and at small buy-ins. I'm sure it's a lot harder to stay on track when the mortage payment is on the line.

Re: Stopping when you know you are on tilt
 

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I think it pays off to have a brief mental conversation with yourself.

[/ QUOTE ]

Talking to yourself is not neccesarily a good thing. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

In the context of reviewing your personal goals and strategies, it seems as though it could be useful to mentally restate such items as often as needed for them to be ingrained. I'm sure you meant something along those lines. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Stopping when you know you are on tilt
 

Do not ever play unless you are playing your A game. Simply refuse to do it. Consider it a matter of principle. If you find yourself slipping into your B game, sit out. If you cannot calm yourself down and bring back your A game serenity, quit playing. When you are playing you only ever play your A game. Always. No matter what. No matter how good the game is. No matter what justification or reasons you have. Then you will find that you will stay in your A game for longer and longer and longer. You will become more resilient to being knocked off of your A game. You will feel strong and solid. It will become a manner of honor with you, to be a person who always plays their A game.

Re: Stopping when you know you are on tilt
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I think it pays off to have a brief mental conversation with yourself.

[/ QUOTE ]

Talking to yourself is not neccesarily a good thing. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

In the context of reviewing your personal goals and strategies, it seems as though it could be useful to mentally restate such items as often as needed for them to be ingrained. I'm sure you meant something along those lines. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

The voices in my head disagree with you.

Also, they say that you must die.

Re: Stopping when you know you are on tilt
 

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Seriously though.....

For the most part, it occurs when the money means something. We're all guilty of it to a certain degree.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
tilt is the result of a "gambling mentality" (the need to get even, the emotional effect of losing money, etc.)

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I find it interesting that these factors are mentioned frequently when the topic of "tilt" comes up but we seldom talk about the elephant sitting in all of our poker rooms, poor self image.

Even though some may poopoo the concept, a "tilt proof" player needs to understand that it's okay to lose.

As Dr. Al mentions in his book, losing is a very natural thing. More players lose than win.

We, as poker players, in order to make sound decisions are frequently forced to make choices that are counter-intuitive to our nature.

When things don't go our way, I believe there is a tendency to somehow subconsciously tie the result of the decision to our self worth.



"

Re: Stopping when you know you are on tilt
 

[ QUOTE ]
Do not ever play unless you are playing your A game. Simply refuse to do it. Consider it a matter of principle. If you find yourself slipping into your B game, sit out. If you cannot calm yourself down and bring back your A game serenity, quit playing. When you are playing you only ever play your A game. Always. No matter what. No matter how good the game is. No matter what justification or reasons you have. Then you will find that you will stay in your A game for longer and longer and longer. You will become more resilient to being knocked off of your A game. You will feel strong and solid. It will become a manner of honor with you, to be a person who always plays their A game.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is an admirable ambition and one that I have desired for myself for a long time. The only problem I have is, it is so, so rare that I play my A-game that it's almost like I can't wait until I get that back to play. I'm always tired, or moody, or stressed out.

I'm not a full-time pro so a) I only have limited time in the week that playing poker is even available to me; and b) during those hours I am often underslept and overstressed. If I refused to play less than my A-game I would literally play like 3 hours a week. I'm not sure what the solution will be to this, if I can even ever find one.

Re: Stopping when you know you are on tilt
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So my question basically is: When I realize that I am starting to tilt...how can I force myself to stop playing?

[/ QUOTE ]


I will pay you good money if find an answer to that question.

My problem. "Okay, I'm down big. I'll stop at 1:00 a.m."

1 a.m rolls around. "Okay, 1:30 and THAT's it."

1:30 rolls around. You guess the outcome.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hold power button for 3 seconds....