First time ever called a donkey - Could it be true?
 

Sorry I didn't save the HH but here is the basic situation. Stars 180 $20 SNG. Blinds 100/200. Don't recall if the antes had started. I am the BB. All the other characters had similar sized stacks -only one read on a player. I think my image is a weak-tight player which is true but I am trying to become more aggressive. This is not a results oriented post or showing off some stupid move that worked. I rarely post hands but this one has been nagging at me since yesterday.

UTG mini raises to 400 (Notes say previously miniraised from EP with AKs and QQ as well as suited connectors)
MP calls 400
MP2 calls 400
Button calls 400
SB folds
BB- me J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
Pot has 1,900: 4 callers at 400, sb 100, bb 200. Cost to me to call $200 getting about 9:1. So I called for $200. I figured no one could ever be a 9:1 dog pre flop but I would probably being check folding after the flop.

You can probably guess what happened next.

Flop T,3,3
I check, UTG bets 1,000, MP calls 1,000, MP2 folds, Button calls 1,000. I bet out $5,000 (pot size bet)(probably a weak-tight move). Folds around to button who instantly pushes for about 10,000. I call the remaining 3,500 of my stack.
Button turns over Tx and I take the pot.

This is where everyone went nuts. The button started calling me a donkey and some of the others joined in with such things as: how could I call a raise with a trash hand, what a donk play, calling me an idiot and so on.

What I would like from you guys is either a little moral support or some help in why my play was wrong. I figured the pot odds were screaming for a call and the only times I would call with J3 is in a blind situation for free (see above weak-tight self assessment) and for a miniraise only if the pot was huge.

So I leave the comments up to you.

Re: First time ever called a donkey - Could it be true?
 

yawn

getting 9 to 1 with a J3 suited? easy call man, then you flop trips.. ding.

you might still be a donkey, but not because of this hand.

Re: First time ever called a donkey - Could it be true?
 

The preflop call looks fine.

I agree the large checkraise on the flop might be weak/tight, particularly if there were no suits on the flop.

Maybe button is the donk overplaying Tx here. What x did he have with his T that he called the full amount of the raise preflop and put all his money in with top pair? Was his Tx suited?

You can often play a lot more hands when you are playing loose fish who will pay you off when you hit. I would call here with random suited cards. Seems like a pretty loose table with so many calls to a UTG miniraise.

Re: First time ever called a donkey - Could it be true?
 

LOL for real. "You might still be a donkey...."

Don't be ashamed of the move. It's poker, and you flopped a set. Period.

I am the Prince of Donkeys. I am a recovering Fish. I want the title of King of Bad Beats.

Re: First time ever called a donkey - Could it be true?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I want the title of King of Bad Beats.

[/ QUOTE ]

you'll have to pry it from my cold, dead hands ...

Re: First time ever called a donkey - Could it be true?
 

After I bust your AA with a cold-called boat flop on 7 2 off, this can be arranged!!!

Re: First time ever called a donkey - Could it be true?
 

I don't believe it could be true .... that this is the first time you have been called a donkey, that is.

[img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Re: First time ever called a donkey - Could it be true?
 

[ QUOTE ]
After I bust your AA with a cold-called boat flop on 7 2 off, this can be arranged!!!

[/ QUOTE ]

will never happen, i muck AA pre-flop because of all of my negative karma.

Re: First time ever called a donkey - Could it be true?
 

I would lead out on this flop.

Your play was not donkeyish in the least.

Re: First time ever called a donkey - Could it be true?
 

I'm perfectly content to let people call me donkeys after I bust them. It happens to me all the time but my ROI says I must be doing something right. I play for the money, not the approval of other people at the table.

The button is a donkey for pushing Tx after you check raise against all those opponents. What the hell did he think you had?

Re: First time ever called a donkey - Could it be true?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I would lead out on this flop.

Your play was not donkeyish in the least.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like this line, a CR makes it blatantly obvious IMO.

Re: First time ever called a donkey - Could it be true?
 

You've got to be playing a lot more poker if this is the first time you've been called a donkey. It is a daily occurance for me on my limit tables where I play a TAG game.

You are a donkey, but not for calling PF. You are a donkey for taking such a tiny pot with it. I mean, would it kill you to check the turn? You are set up for a chk/raise vs. the field. Even if UTG doesn't bet it, someone will.

Re: First time ever called a donkey - Could it be true?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I would lead out on this flop.

Your play was not donkeyish in the least.

[/ QUOTE ]

Preflop the call was automatic.

I don't like the way you played the flop. I would take a chance by slow playing and flat calling. You don't want to chase people away with a checkraise. With this kind of table, I would take a chance and checkraise the turn.

Leading out might be could, but I often take down pots on a bluff betting out of the blinds with a low pair on the board, so it might be better not to bet out.

The guy with Tx was the real donk. Since OP calls it x, it probably wasn't a very high x, so he shouldn't have called thepreflop raise and should have figured you had atleast a higher kicker and folded to the checkraise.

Re: First time ever called a donkey - Could it be true?
 

VNH, maybe check raise the turn, but everything else is ok

the weakers your oponents are, the more hands u wanna play, especially getting 9:1 odds

Re: First time ever called a donkey - Could it be true?
 

After reading your responses I have to agree that the check raise move was a pretty bad play. I should have slow played and just called the flop. I am trying to change over from a weak-tight to a classic tight aggressive. Per your advise and Dr. Schoonmaker's in Psychology of Poker (an incredible book in case you haven't read it) one thing I need to change is to slow play more when I have a big hand. You are right I should have won more chips with this hand instead of going for the quick score.

I guess the conclusion is that I did play like a donkey but for reasons different than the players at the table thought. Thanks for the advise and the help towards improving.

Re: First time ever called a donkey - Could it be true?
 

[ QUOTE ]
one thing I need to change is to slow play more when I have a big hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats usually not the main problem with a weak tight player.

I disagree that you should have slow played here.

Re: First time ever called a donkey - Could it be true?
 

Since I value your opinion what, if anything, should I have done differently?

Re: First time ever called a donkey - Could it be true?
 

I do this a lot more than a lot of people on the MTT board, but I'd lead out on a flop like this 90% of the time. People get put in a tough spot with a marginal hand on this board, and it's unlikely they are going to put you on a 3. Your line, pretty much reeks of a 3, and I'd be pretty hesitant to commit with just about anything if I was the villain. You were lucky that he played so horrible and was incapable of folding top pair.

Re: First time ever called a donkey - Could it be true?
 

CSC, you sure do love to slowplay alot it seems [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

OP, dont worry about, half the time people at ur table dont know what they are talking about and jsut upset they lost a pot

Re: First time ever called a donkey - Could it be true?
 

I like leading out if I'm HU with the PFR because (a) it will reek of a steal, (b) I want to build the pot and (c) most opponents will smell a rat and shut down if you take any other line. But here, with so many to act, I think check-calling will make you more money in the long run.

Re: First time ever called a donkey - Could it be true?
 

"donkey" is misused a whole lot, I have been called donkey in ring games by guys with VPIP +50. I think to myself, WOW I must be a pretty big donk if the king of donks at the table thinks I am a donkey. LOL.

Players that are constantly mini raise thier good hands are asking to get busted. If someone mini raised with ACES and showed me face up, I would still call the mini raise in my BB, because I know if I hit a big flop, I am stacking the guy.

Re: First time ever called a donkey - Could it be true?
 

As or the abuse you recieved, I would just post "9:1" and let them figure it out. As for the hand, bet that flop please.

Re: First time ever called a donkey - Could it be true?
 

Donkey is as Donkey does.

- Forrest Gump

Re: First time ever called a donkey - Could it be true?
 

To continue after the flop, you'll need the flop to hit you pretty hard. The odds of getting two pair, a set, a flush or a flush draw are ~15% so calling with 9:1 odds makes sense even if it is against 4 opponents.

Re: First time ever called a donkey - Could it be true?
 

I absent-mindedly folded 8-4 off in the SB against 4 callers recently. Flop came 8-8-8 and I've been kicking myself ever since.

You do need to hit the flop pretty hard, but the pay-off will be huge when you do.

Re: First time ever called a donkey - Could it be true?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I absent-mindedly folded 8-4 off in the SB against 4 callers recently. Flop came 8-8-8 and I've been kicking myself ever since.

You do need to hit the flop pretty hard, but the pay-off will be huge when you do.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is not necessarily a bad fold, depending on how deep the money is and how the table was playing. Suited or connected cards are much stronger to see a flop with.

Re: First time ever called a donkey - Could it be true?
 

[ QUOTE ]
So I leave the comments up to you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Donkey-calling Rule Numero Uno:

If you are called a donkey then it is guaranteed there is at least one at the table. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

Numero Dos:

All name calling does is make a lesser player play better. It rarely makes a better player play worse. Refrain from doing it and responding to it.

Good preflop call (but agree with others, you should have bet out on the flop) and don't let the sticks and stones bit ruin your Christmas.

Re: First time ever called a donkey - Could it be true?
 

They call me a donkey all the time.

I take it as a compliment. They either don't understand
what I'm doing, at least that's what I hope, or maybe they're correct.

Bruce

Re: First time ever called a donkey - Could it be true?
 

Great time to throw in a

"I could have sworn I had two Jacks" or

"I thought this was BlackJack?"

to really get them on tilt

Re: First time ever called a donkey - Could it be true?
 

Easy preflop call, but I usually lead out on that flop.

Re: being called a donk...

I have a guilty pleasure of being called a donk. For example: I was experimenting with my LAG play on a $1.50turbo and that was the most times I've ever been called a donk in a single tournament. I find it even funnier to say, "yeah, I am really bad. I hate folding flush draws and stuff." That particular tourney I took 2nd and hit nearly every draw etc. except for the last. The most spectacular one was when I was drawing to a baby flush on the flop and was getting 5:1 odds, but for all of my chips. I called, hit my flush, and was immediately berated by 3 different people, lol.

Don't worry so much about the people who call you a donk on a hand like this. Worry about the guy(s) who say "nice call pre-flop." Fear them greatly over the true donks.

-Gross

Re: First time ever called a donkey - Could it be true?
 

you probably cant even spell poker

Re: First time ever called a donkey - Could it be true?
 

I was called one today. Kid said he's been only playing poker (stud and hold 'em) for 3 months and he's better than me. Of course, he was reduced by my chat, and my chips.

Re: First time ever called a donkey - Could it be true?
 

[ QUOTE ]
After reading your responses I have to agree that the check raise move was a pretty bad play. I should have slow played and just called the flop. I am trying to change over from a weak-tight to a classic tight aggressive. Per your advise and Dr. Schoonmaker's in Psychology of Poker (an incredible book in case you haven't read it) one thing I need to change is to slow play more when I have a big hand. You are right I should have won more chips with this hand instead of going for the quick score.

I guess the conclusion is that I did play like a donkey but for reasons different than the players at the table thought. Thanks for the advise and the help towards improving.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think leading out or check/calling the flop are better than the checkraise. You don't want to tip people off that you have a huge hand and give them a chance to get away.

Often times you get lambasted by fish for good standard plays that they don't understand, but most pros and other strong players do.

In this case, almost any player, weak or strong, would call the miniraise from teh BB with a multiway pot and random suited cards.

Re: First time ever called a donkey - Could it be true?
 

I was called a donkey for winning this hand:

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (9 handed) converter

Hero (t2050)
MP2 (t2745)
MP3 (t1360)
CO (t1245)
Button (t2940)
SB (t1200)
BB (t1520)
UTG (t1300)
UTG+1 (t3285)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to t100</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls t100, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, SB calls t75, BB calls t50.

Flop: (t400) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, Hero checks.

Turn: (t400) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets t100</font>, UTG folds, Hero calls t100, SB folds.

River: (t600) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t150</font>, BB calls t150.

Final Pot: t900

Results below:
BB has Ts Jc (one pair, jacks).
Hero has 8h Th (flush, jack high).
Outcome: Hero wins t900.

I never once thought that I was not getting a good price on any street with this hand. It was a minraise and I felt that several people would see the flop because of this, a fine situation for a suited one-gapper. I flopped middle pair and got to see the free turn which gave me an inside straght draw and a flush draw. That seemed like a ton of outs (and it was even though the Ten wasn't an out after all) and I only had to call t100 into a t500 pot to see the river. I wanted to say something when villain bitched but decided to let him seethe.

Re: First time ever called a donkey - Could it be true?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I was called a donkey for winning this hand:

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (9 handed) converter

Hero (t2050)
MP2 (t2745)
MP3 (t1360)
CO (t1245)
Button (t2940)
SB (t1200)
BB (t1520)
UTG (t1300)
UTG+1 (t3285)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to t100</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls t100, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, SB calls t75, BB calls t50.

Flop: (t400) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, Hero checks.

Turn: (t400) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets t100</font>, UTG folds, Hero calls t100, SB folds.

River: (t600) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t150</font>, BB calls t150.

Final Pot: t900

Results below:
BB has Ts Jc (one pair, jacks).
Hero has 8h Th (flush, jack high).
Outcome: Hero wins t900.

I never once thought that I was not getting a good price on any street with this hand. It was a minraise and I felt that several people would see the flop because of this, a fine situation for a suited one-gapper. I flopped middle pair and got to see the free turn which gave me an inside straght draw and a flush draw. That seemed like a ton of outs (and it was even though the Ten wasn't an out after all) and I only had to call t100 into a t500 pot to see the river. I wanted to say something when villain bitched but decided to let him seethe.

[/ QUOTE ]

You probably should start a new thread, but I will reply. I would not call the miniraise, but it is not terrible and depends on your style and the situation. You wound up having position, but you called from middle position. You might have had to fold this to a preflop raise. Generally, I would save my chips.

You might bet 2nd pair and the backdoor with position on the flop, but checking is OK too.

When you make the flush, I would bet more than 1/4 pot. If you bet 3/4 pot and get called 40% of the time, you are doing much better.

I wouldn't call you a donkey, but I am not real impressed by how you played this.

Re: First time ever called a donkey - Could it be true?
 

A donkey??

I'd call you a math genius.

If you don't call here, I'd call you an idiot.

nc

Stipe

Re: First time ever called a donkey - Could it be true?
 

http://img415.imageshack.us/img415/6746/banned9ww.jpg

Re: First time ever called a donkey - Could it be true?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Edited by Jurollo

[/ QUOTE ]

Posted on this thread, because you are looking for donkeys who are suckers to go for this scam.

Re: First time ever called a donkey - Could it be true?
 

[ QUOTE ]
http://img415.imageshack.us/img415/6746/banned9ww.jpg

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't be stupid people, or you will have the same fate.
~Justin

Re: First time ever called a donkey - Could it be true?
 

[ QUOTE ]
This is where everyone went nuts. The button started calling me a donkey

[/ QUOTE ]

A bet, 2 calls, a check-raise, and the button thinks it's a non donkey play to then commit all his chips with top pair on a paired board. And calls the guy with trips a donkey. Classic.

[ QUOTE ]
and some of the others joined in with such things as: how could I call a raise with a trash hand, what a donk play

[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds like a good table.