Calling preflop raises after limping: How to exploit & avoid
 

In LL games I regularly see that 5 players will limp in, get raised by an LP, and then all of the players will call. It looks something like this: limp, limp, limp, limp, limp, raise, call, call, call, call, call.

Two questions:

1. How do I exploit this? One idea is to raise for value in LP with drawing hands (e.g., 77, QJs).

2. How do I avoid this problem? Which hands should I fold to a preflop raiser after limping in?

Thx.

Re: Calling preflop raises after limping: How to exploit & avoid
 

Hiya mdlm,

I'm pretty much a newbie like yourself, but I'll chip in my two cents here:

1) How do I exploit this? You suggested what I do -- raise on my drawing hands as well as my strong hands. If I hit, I might as well make some money on it.

2) How do I avoid this problem? I try not to limp with hands that should be folded to a single raise behind them. In general, I feel that if I want to fold to a single raise, I shouldn't have limped with it in the first place.

Just my 2c,
PP

Re: Calling preflop raises after limping: How to exploit & avoid
 

On the original call, you are getting 3, 4 or 5 to 1. On the call of the raise, you are getting 11 to 1. What hands will you play getting 3 to 1 odds, that you won't play for 11 to 1. Obviously, if it was right to call the limp, it is right to call the raise.

The only situation where you would consider folding, after calling the blinds, is where it comes back to you for three bets, because now you know that there are potentially multiple big hands out there, so you are behind unless you have a premium hand. In fact, now some hands that you might limp with, say AJ off, are likely in a lot of trouble, because you might not have many outs. Additionally, the presence of a raise and three bettor, likely means that the hand will be contested on the flop, so the price you have to pay to see the turn has also just gone up. So you might fold to a threebet if you had just limped in originally.

If you want to take advantage of the limpers, the way to do it is to threebet the raiser, and create some dead money in the pot. But you have to have a hand that can compete with the raiser here.

Good Luck,
Play Well,

Bob T.

Re: Calling preflop raises after limping: How to exploit & avoid
 

1) you already said it. Raise good drawing hands like suited connectors and pairs, raise other premium hands as you would normally.

2) None. You shouldn't limp into a hand where you're not willing to call a raise behind you. This is why LP is so good, limping here you have much fewer people to worry about raising behind you which is a major reason you can play a lot more hands. Calling after it's been 3-bet back to you is another story.

So, Mr "newbie chronicles", are you now playing some LL ring games? Or is this just watching from the sidelines?

Re: Calling preflop raises after limping: How to exploit & avoid
 

In that situation, I can't think of a single hand that I'd fold to a single raise after limping in.

However, there are a lot of hands I won't limp with in this kind of game that I might play in other situations as well as hands I might play that I wouldn't otherwise.

I'm much more inclined to limp in with something like 89s in this kind of game than others. If I'm late, I'll raise with hands like JTs, A4s. I'll definitely play any pocket pair. I'll avoid big unsuited cards here - KJo is just about my least favorite hand here. Of course, if I did accidentally limp in with KTo, there's no question that I would call one more bet if it came around with everyone calling.

Re: Calling preflop raises after limping: How to exploit & avoid
 

"2. How do I avoid this problem? Which hands should I fold to a preflop raiser after limping in?"

none....if you voluntarily limped, your hand should be able to withstand a raise behind it. if it cant, you shouldnt have limped in the first place.

b

Bad reasoning
 

On the original call, you are getting 3, 4 or 5 to 1. On the call of the raise, you are getting 11 to 1. What hands will you play getting 3 to 1 odds, that you won't play for 11 to 1. Obviously, if it was right to call the limp, it is right to call the raise.

This analysis is incorrect. Using this analysis you would _never_ fold to a single raise on any street after betting since your odds _always_ improve.

Re: Bad reasoning
 

What hands would you call with getting 3:1 but fold for 5.5:1?

Once the action is back to you, what information do you have other than your immediate pot odds?

Re: Calling preflop raises after limping: How to exploit & avoid
 

Before the flop. if it was correct to limp in and now you call a raise for one more bet, you are playing correctly. There are virtually no hands that you would fold in this spot for one more bet.

But you do fold some of these hands when in the blind if someone raises. There are two reasons for this. First, there is no additional blind money in the pot (since you are the blind). Second, it looks natural to fold the blind and thus doesn't encourage players to take shots at you.

Here's an example. Suppose you call with AJ UTG and are immediately raised by the player on your left. Without discussing the rest of the action, you should be prepared to call for one more bet. However, if you held this same hand in the big blind against this exact same raiser, you might (and often should) fold.

MM

Re: Bad reasoning
 

No, he's right.

Pre-flop, there are no board cards out. So if your odds increase from 3-1 up to 11-1, you should obviously still call.

Post-flop, the board dictates what odds you need to continue. You might be getting 18-1, but if your only out is to a runner-runner flush, you need 23-1 to call.

Re: Bad reasoning
 

Once the action is back to you, what information do you have other than your immediate pot odds?

The information that someone raised and that others called.

Re: Calling preflop raises after limping: How to exploit & avoid
 

Mason, when I was playing in the Shreveport $20-$40 game, I frequently saw players limp in and then call both a raise and a reraise (two full bets) when the action came back to them. Can you think of any situation where this would be correct? (I would think folding would almost always be right since the limper supposedly did not have a good enough hand to raise with himself.)

No
 

The point is that if you bet and someone raises, your odds are _always_ better. This means that you would _never_ fold to a raise after betting if his analysis is correct. Obviously it's not.

Re: Calling preflop raises after limping: How to exploit & avoid
 

I could see doing this with a small or medium pair if the odds were appropriate. For instance, you limp in UTG with 88... player to your left raises... player on his left reraises... several cold-callers back to you. You are probably correct to call the two bets back to you if your pot odds are 6-1 or so. Though I agree with you that folding is probably usually the correct play under most circumstances.

Re: No
 

mdlm... I think you are nitpicking here. The point is that a raise both gives you information about your opponent's hand and challenges you to call one more bet (at better pot odds, as you have noted). Preflop, the information you gain about other hands almost never causes the call of one more bet to become incorrect. Postflop, a raise can tell you that you are hopelessly behind and therefore should fold. There is almost no situation preflop where a raise can tell you that you are hopelessly behind.

Re: Calling preflop raises after limping: How to exploit & avoid
 

When you limp with a pocket pair, even as low as 22, I think you can correctly call a double raise back to you. Other limping hands like KQo and JTs should almost always be folded.

Re: Calling preflop raises after limping: How to exploit & avoid
 

I will try to tackle this problem.

U limp because most of the time, your not strong enough to raise. If you're not strong enough to raise, why should you call? You only limped hoping you have a decent hand.

I.e. limping in mid position with q/jo. 7 players call, and button raises. Now, what do you think the button could have to make a raise like that? What kind of hand could he have raised that you have a decent chance of beating if you flop a pair? If the player is legit, he wouldn't be raising with anything less than k/qs most likely. k/q s is a hand that would destroy your q/j. Therefore his hand would likely be 10/10+ (very arguable, i'm not sure anyone would even raise on the button with that, and even j/j would be a favourite over your q/j slightly). Not only the raisor's hand, do you fear, but also the people calling. I support the the advice of those who said calling the raise with pocket pairs, but not hands that are not strong enough to raise with. You limp because you don't know any extra information preflop, since your hand is playable, you call. But when your hand is quite clearly an underdog, I say folding is correct.

IMO the question is not having the odds or not, its knowing that you could very likely be beat even if you hit the typical pair on the flop.

I think a raise on the button has a lot of strength especially when there are more callers.

2. How do I avoid this problem? You can't avoid it, because people can always be raising behind you. Have a good read about the type of player the guy is, play with position. If raised from behind, fold hands you would never raise with, other than pairs, typical limping hands don't win more than 15% anyways, but the raisor's hand could very likely be in that range.

Re: Calling preflop raises after limping: How to exploit & avoid
 

i think if you need a better than raising hand to call a raise, you need a possible borderline raising hand to at least limp. it's linear to me.

in your example, first off, i wouldnt really be playing QJo in this spot. i play it in CO+1 typically. its a little early..whatre you hoping for? a big multiway pot? QJo isnt that great multiway. if im playing it in this spot, id rather raise and try and cut the field. if this is a passive table and a raise wont cut the field, id fold it. there are many players behind you left to act that could raise it. say there are 4 behind, that's 4 chances youre giving them to let you put dead money in the pot...how often are you going to try and limp and then fold to the raise? youre giving too much here. itd be better not to play it at all.

i take note on the table when players limp fold when they limp voluntarily into the pot, then leave dead money to a raise behind them. it means their playing standards are a little lower given the position theyre in. it also helps me define their hand a little more when they do call the raise. in fact i may be more inclined to raise behind them at this point. why> because my hand is borderline raise, there's may not even be worth the call they made.

a raise on the button with alot of callers could be a wide range of hands, it doesnt mean strength...you may even have the raiser dominated. say he holds JTs...which is an easy button raise with many callers. even if you knew someone had you beat preflop.

the only exception i may consider is folding to the sb raise, since many wont raise out of there without the big 3. but im exploring that. and until i conclude that finding, im still calling that raise behind me too...

ciao

b

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Re: Bad reasoning
 

the odds of making your hand change dramatically once the flop is out. your odds dont improve to making your hand necesarily based solely on pot odds. do you know what 'fit or fold' is and what it means? if the flop misses you completely you dont have the same odds to call as if you catch a piece of the flop regardless of pot odds. what are you drawing to? you missed

bob had a great explanation i thought...

b

http://216.40.249.192/mysmilies/cont...ball_smile.gif

Re: Calling preflop raises after limping: How to exploit & avoid
 

it should also be noted, though obvious to most, that your blind money isnt 'voluntarily' put in the pot preflop. youre not 'limping' prior to the UTG's action.

b

http://216.40.249.192/mysmilies/cont...ball_smile.gif

Re: No
 

If we're only talking about pre-flop, then yes, you should really always call due to the odds you're getting. You can't really have any idea about what your opponent might have.

Once the flop comes, you can start to narrow down his possible hands. Many times you can reason out that he is far ahead of you and/or you don't have the odds to call his raise.

Pre-flop and post-flop are different.

Re: Calling preflop raises after limping: How to exploit & avoid
 

You should call with any pair. The implied odds should be there for your set since you can expect a lot of action from the three bettor.

MM

Re: Calling preflop raises after limping: How to exploit & avoid
 

I should have read this post before I posted my answer. It is absolutely correct.

MM

Great Answer. Thanks! (n/t)
 

(n/t)