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-   -   Revisiting the Relationship Between Bubble FE and Buy-In (http://archives2.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=340130)

downtown 09-19-2005 04:29 PM

Revisiting the Relationship Between Bubble FE and Buy-In
 
I was just rereading this post on folding equity (FE) authored by PrayingMantis that was posted a little over a year ago and that I had foolishly never read in detail beyond the start of the article.

First Iíd like to mention that itís really a great post, and I canít imagine that any SNG player couldnít benefit from reading the post and all the responses, or reading it again. I had thrown these ideas around with a couple of other posters without knowing they were so thoroughly covered it in the past, and if nothing else this post reminded me what a great resource these boards are.

Second, I have some questions for either those who have progressed up the buy-in ladder or for those who play both 800 and 1000 chip games at Party/skins. My question is whether there still a noticeable difference in calling ranges (and therefore FE) on the bubble in the $55s and $109s above and beyond that of the $22s and $33s.

Note this is not a ďHave the 55s gotten tougher?Ē question. Also, I am aware of the differences in skill level of the average player, but Iím more interested in this specific topic of FE as related to buy-in. The question is whether the level-dependant difference in FE alluded to in the article is still present, and if so to the same degree. This shouldnít affect our ability to beat these games, but rather the approach to beat them, and thatís why Iím submitting the question to the forum.

Personally I noticed slightly tighter bubble-calling standards in the $33s, and it would truly be great news for me if anyone could present even anecdotal evidence that this was also the case (more FE on the bubble) when moving up to the $55s, as that is where Iím headed very, very soon. So my motivation is selfish, but I thought this would be a useful question for the forum in general.

Finally, I am certain that experience will prove the best teacher in this matter, but Iím happy to first hear your opinions.

Apathy 09-19-2005 04:35 PM

Re: Revisiting the Relationship Between Bubble FE and Buy-In
 
I think you should be focusing more on individual players tendancies rather then trying to create generalizations about an entire buy-in level.

downtown 09-19-2005 04:49 PM

Re: Revisiting the Relationship Between Bubble FE and Buy-In
 
[ QUOTE ]
I think you should be focusing more on individual players tendancies rather then trying to create generalizations about an entire buy-in level.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you're saying that it's still important to be selectively agressive against the right opponents, I agree. I don't think I'm trying to create a generalization about an entire buy-in level, but I see how you could construe it in that fashion. I'm trying to add a potentially valuable variable into my personal, internal calling-range-assigning mechanism, if that makes any sense. I think it's valuable to me to address this "buy-in" part of the equation, so that's why I posted this. It's admittedly more general than "stack size, blinds, etc," but still important in my mind. If the importance is zero to you, then it's noted, but if you've played at a high level for a long time, it might not be something you've noticed.

Messy_Jesse 09-19-2005 07:05 PM

Re: Revisiting the Relationship Between Bubble FE and Buy-In
 
To answer your question, yes, as you progress up the ladder, and calling ranges are generally tighter. This obviously is a corollary to the fact that players at the 55s are better players, and thus have a more appropriate calling range on the bubble. I've played almost 500 109s, and the bubble play there is significantly superior to that at the 55s. I'm not sure that I can articulate why, but at the 109s, it seems that I always find myself in tough spots against opponents who know how to manipulate the game to put me there.

To sum this up, as anyone will be sure to tell you, as you move up, your folding equity on the bubble also goes up. I think that it is both a factor of 1) increasing skill and 2) a larger amount of money is at stake.

downtown 09-20-2005 03:00 AM

Re: Revisiting the Relationship Between Bubble FE and Buy-In
 
Bump for insomniacs (like me) and night owls.

Newt_Buggs 09-20-2005 03:20 AM

Re: Revisiting the Relationship Between Bubble FE and Buy-In
 
I've noticed a tendency on this forum to underate FE at the lower buy ins. Back when I played the $11s/$22s I remembered having plenty of FE.....

Oh yeah, and don't think that you've got it tough if you play in lower games where people have wider calling ranges. I'de take a table of loose passive, spite calling donks on the bubble any day over a group of tight pros. Its true, good players will fold some good hands on the bubble, but anyone smart enough to fold good hands is also smart enough to push trash at you and make you fold yours.

09-20-2005 03:48 AM

Re: Revisiting the Relationship Between Bubble FE and Buy-In
 
[ QUOTE ]
I've noticed a tendency on this forum to underate FE at the lower buy ins. Back when I played the $11s/$22s I remembered having plenty of FE.....

Oh yeah, and don't think that you've got it tough if you play in lower games where people have wider calling ranges. I'de take a table of loose passive, spite calling donks on the bubble any day over a group of tight pros. Its true, good players will fold some good hands on the bubble, but anyone smart enough to fold good hands is also smart enough to push trash at you and make you fold yours.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can't speak for 22s. At the 11s, I think QJo is a call to 25% of players in non-extreme situations. I frequently get called as big stack by second big stack with hands like Q9s or JT. IMHO, most players at 11s don't consider the payout much unless they're a pretty short stack, and just try to play good cash game poker. Of course, their cash game poker is horrible too.

downtown 09-20-2005 03:59 AM

Re: Revisiting the Relationship Between Bubble FE and Buy-In
 
[ QUOTE ]
Oh yeah, and don't think that you've got it tough if you play in lower games where people have wider calling ranges. I'de take a table of loose passive, spite calling donks on the bubble any day over a group of tight pros. Its true, good players will fold some good hands on the bubble, but anyone smart enough to fold good hands is also smart enough to push trash at you and make you fold yours.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am in no way implying that higher buyins are easier or that it is easier to play against good players in general. I understand good players push trash more often and that it is tougher on the bubble. I don't think I or others have got it tough in lower limit games. I think I've got it great and that's why I have the roll to move up. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I think you're saying that there is more FE. Thanks for the response.

pergesu 09-20-2005 04:06 AM

Re: Revisiting the Relationship Between Bubble FE and Buy-In
 
I just think you have to ensure that your hands have at least a modicum of showdown value.

I get loose calls all the time, but I'm never in bad shape. Just pay extra attention when it's 5-handed to see who you can pick on. Make notes for ridiculously tight or loose players, so that you don't forget who they are because you're 8-tabling. There's nothing worse than shoving J4s and then remembering that the BB doesn't have a fold button. The little yellow icon always alerts me that there's something I should remember before I act.

But there's plenty of FE at the lower buyins. They just won't fold jacks ever when they "should."


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