Not raising with KK on good flop
 

PT-stats(about 65-80hands for all of them):
CO: 29% VP$IP, 14% PFR, 1,73 Total agg
Button: 80%VP$IP, 9%PFR, 0,89 Total agg
BB: 36.14% VP$IP, 6%PFR, 1.21 Total agg

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, CO calls, Button calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB 3-bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero caps</font>, CO calls, Button calls, BB calls.
<font color="blue">Lots of action, lots of fun! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]</font>

Flop: (16.50 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, Hero calls, CO calls, Button calls.
<font color="blue">Hmmm, BBs bet doesn't really say anything. If I'm rasing CO will get 2 to 19 to call and button 2 to 21(if CO calls). That and the fact that they are loose makes me just call here, intending to raise the turn.</font>

Turn: (10.25 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, Hero checks, CO checks, Button checks.
<font color="blue">Auch, Here comes the ace, probably at least someone got an ace here, so I plan to check/call here. Is this a bit to weak?</font>

River: (10.25 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, CO calls, Button folds, BB folds.
<font color="blue"> Ahhh, this we like. Standard bet right? Check-raise feels a bit dumb, people might just check along. </font>
Final Pot: 12.25 BB

So how about this play? To weak and passive?

Re: Not raising with KK on good flop
 

You need to raise this flop.

Re: Not raising with KK on good flop
 

raise flop

Re: Not raising with KK on good flop
 

Let me explain to you why you need to raise: You loose more equity for every flop peeler that comes along than you gain from their extra small bets.

Lets say your chances of winning this hand if you raise and knock out both players behind is 75% and if you just call and let both players in that falls to 60%. I'm sure the Math will say that you should raise despite the two extra sb's you gain.

Re: Not raising with KK on good flop
 

[ QUOTE ]

<font color="blue">Hmmm, BBs bet doesn't really say anything. If I'm rasing CO will get 2 to 19 to call and button 2 to 21(if CO calls). That and the fact that they are loose makes me just call here, intending to raise the turn.</font>

[/ QUOTE ]

The question I think you should ask is 1:9.5 to call to what. I flush draw will call no matter what. But raising makes it wrong for say a gutshot with 4 outs to call(excluding implied odds). The only over card to your pair is an A so assuming only one of them has one, they are drawing to 3 outs and are not getting good enough odds. You may push out a weak Q such as QJ with your raise (even though it may be right for them to call). Otherwise, you are collecting bets while you still can. If the J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] or T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] comes on the turn you are not going to be happy. And as it turned out an A came on the turn which did not make you happy. Raise and try to force people to either call incorrectly or fold incorrectly.

Re: Not raising with KK on good flop
 

Raise flop, bet turn, bet river.

Re: Not raising with KK on good flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
<font color="blue">Hmmm, BBs bet doesn't really say anything. If I'm rasing CO will get 2 to 19 to call and button 2 to 21(if CO calls). That and the fact that they are loose makes me just call here, intending to raise the turn.</font>

[/ QUOTE ]

The question I think you should ask is 1:9.5 to call to what. I flush draw will call no matter what. But raising makes it wrong for say a gutshot with 4 outs to call(excluding implied odds). The only over card to your pair is an A so assuming only one of them has one, they are drawing to 3 outs and are not getting good enough odds. You may push out a weak Q such as QJ with your raise (even though it may be right for them to call). Otherwise, you are collecting bets while you still can. If the J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] or T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] comes on the turn you are not going to be happy. And as it turned out an A came on the turn which did not make you happy. Raise and try to force people to either call incorrectly or fold incorrectly.

Re: Not raising with KK on good flop
 

It's just not right to slowplay with an overpair.

Go read SSHE on slowplaying. You should only be slowplaying when you think your opponents can only improve to second best behind you. Given the way the hand played, with a Q and a 2 flush on the board, that just wasn't the case.

Pop the flop and try to clean up the aces and gutshots as explained by Nick. You'd be kicking yourself had you not caught that miracle river card.

Re: Not raising with KK on good flop
 

Even though I don't like it anyway, there may be some merit to your plan if one could be 100% sure BB will bet the turn. Unfortunately that's not that certain at all, so you're just missing bets by not raising the flop.

Re: Not raising with KK on good flop
 

I believe you are referring to SSHE, "protecting your hand when the pot is extremely large".
I'd say your line would be good if you replace the Q with a 9. Then waiting for the turn would be spot on. A flop raise would not protect your hand.

But with the Q you can not count on BB to bet a hand that is worse on the turn. Based on his preflop stats I would say he has TT-AA or AK. He will bet AA and QQ on the turn for sure but I'm not sure about TT, JJ and AK. With no Q he will bet with everything he 3bets preflop with, maybe not AK.
So raise the flop and collect extra bets, don't worry about protection.