100% standard AJ raptor hand from sb.. in the 55s at least..
 

***** Hand History for Game 2506106721 *****
NL Texas Hold'em $50 Buy-in + $5 Entry Fee Trny:14690139 Level:1 Blinds(10/15) - Tuesday, August 09, 16:40:54 EDT 2005
Table Table 11900 (Real Money)
Seat 2 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 6: hold___fold ( $1055 )
Seat 3: Itachi86 ( $985 )
Seat 5: lanford ( $1550 )
Seat 10: eddyk4 ( $980 )
Seat 7: Domanooch ( $975 )
Seat 2: MrSneakers ( $730 )
Seat 8: cubanacan ( $930 )
Seat 1: CATCH8 ( $795 )
Seat 9: TopSet69 ( $1045 )
Seat 4: HeelofTar ( $955 )
Trny:14690139 Level:1
Blinds(10/15)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Itachi86 [ As Js ]
lanford folds.
hold___fold folds.
Domanooch folds.
cubanacan folds.
TopSet69 folds.
eddyk4 calls [15].
CATCH8 calls [15].
MrSneakers folds.
>You have options at Table 12059 Table!.
Itachi86 calls [5].
HeelofTar checks.
** Dealing Flop ** [ 8s, 9d, Ac ]
Itachi86 checks.
HeelofTar checks.
eddyk4 bets [15].
CATCH8 folds.
Itachi86 calls [15].
HeelofTar calls [15].
** Dealing Turn ** [ 2d ]
Itachi86 checks.
HeelofTar checks.
>You have options at Table 12059 Table!.
eddyk4 bets [60].
Itachi86 folds.

hmm.. i love discussions.. GO!! holla

Re: 100% standard AJ raptor hand from sb.. in the 55s at least..
 

Why are you calling the flop bet? Hoping to catch a J?

Bet flop, fold to raise. If called, check/fold turn, if check behind turn, check call river.

Re: 100% standard AJ raptor hand from sb.. in the 55s at least..
 

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Why are you calling the flop bet? Hoping to catch a J?

Bet flop, fold to raise. If called, check/fold turn, if check behind turn, check call river.

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thats just bad advice plain and simple. holla

edit.. as for why i call the flop? are u kidding? why is everyone scared to see a turn? holla

Re: 100% standard AJ raptor hand from sb.. in the 55s at least..
 

Looks good to me. Although, something about the minimum bet on the flop would make me want to give it some more action then. However, his bigger bet on the turn shows that you probably made the correct choice not to get any more chips involved.

As bad as AJ is when you pair the ace it gets even worse when the board has multiple cards 6-10 on it. It only gives other, weaker, aces another chance to beat you in addition to the good aces that already have you outkicked. There is also the threat of two pair, trips, and draws that will bet more than you can call on the river whether they hit or not.

The call on the flop was fine, as you would have later streets to find out where you stand and it was only 15. Backdoor outs to boot, I think the call here, despite holding the dreaded Ace-Jack, is good.

I have definetly(thanks to experience and advice on this board) developed a much tighter strategy with AJ and AQ in the early levels as my STT play has developed over the past month or so, since I've been devoted to them full time. This play wouldn't have always been standard for me, but now, it definetly is.

Re: 100% standard AJ raptor hand from sb.. in the 55s at least..
 

Hmmm...Ok, for my sake could someone explain why we play this so weakly? Are we putting eddyk4 on AK automatically because at a $55 everyone knows better than to limp preflop in this spot? I would have bet this flop...

Re: 100% standard AJ raptor hand from sb.. in the 55s at least..
 

Judging from your title and the hand in question, are you trying to say that you feel your advantage later in the SNG when the blinds are higher is so much that it is not worth risking chips with TPGK?

Are you playing this hand soley for flush value then? I think if you're just gonna play it this weak/tight, or if you really are just looking to preserve chips, just fold preflop. I am being a little bit extreme here (i.e. I don't really expect you to fold preflop), I'm just trying to make a point.

Re: 100% standard AJ raptor hand from sb.. in the 55s at least..
 

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thats just bad advice plain and simple. holla

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Well then enlighten me. I like the line more than yours, at least I extract value sometimes. Unless you think this hand is enough of a trap that you should never put chips in.

AJo is my most profitable hand, even more than AA.

Edit: scratch that, AA has passed AJo (they were very close last I checked)

Re: 100% standard AJ raptor hand from sb.. in the 55s at least..
 

This is a 50+5, i dont knopw how much different they are from the 20+2 that i play. But what makes you so certain that your TP is no good here?

Re: 100% standard AJ raptor hand from sb.. in the 55s at least..
 

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are you trying to say that you feel your advantage later in the SNG when the blinds are higher is so much that it is not worth risking chips with TPGK?

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yea something like that.. its just not necessary to throw yer chips away in a spot like that when they play so damn weak tight later. holla

Re: 100% standard AJ raptor hand from sb.. in the 55s at least..
 

I don't understand. If you just refuse to play AJ then fold it pre-flop. If you can't play it with this flop what the hell are you doing in the hand. You've clearly decided that villian has an AK,AQ,set or 2 pair and carefully eliminated all other possibilities through some unknown power. Insight into the use of this power would be appreciated.

Re: 100% standard AJ raptor hand from sb.. in the 55s at least..
 

against that mini bet I would probably checkraise the flop. You're usually ahead here, and $55 donkeys are still calling a checkraise with hands a lot weaker than AJ here.

Re: 100% standard AJ raptor hand from sb.. in the 55s at least..
 

I check-call small/moderate bets the whole way as my default. Anything around a pot-sized bet, and I'll dump it. In raptor's hand, I call, then call another 120 or so on the river.

Re: 100% standard AJ raptor hand from sb.. in the 55s at least..
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't understand. If you just refuse to play AJ then fold it pre-flop. If you can't play it with this flop what the hell are you doing in the hand. You've clearly decided that villian has an AK,AQ,set or 2 pair and carefully eliminated all other possibilities through some unknown power. Insight into the use of this power would be appreciated.

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i love it when people who have earned zero respect from me and have likely playedl ess than 500 sngs try to berate me instead of calmly asking questions.

ANYWAYS.. everyone seems very slow to grasp the fact that i never said i was sure i was beat. thats not the point is it? the point is, the risk reward ratio to gain those chips in there isnt worth it with this marginal holding. period. keep arguin tho i like it. holla

Re: 100% standard AJ raptor hand from sb.. in the 55s at least..
 

When you are playing short-stack poker (like a SNG), you are best served by getting chips into the pot whenever you rate to almost certainly have the best hand.

You played this hand like a little sissy on every street.

Irieguy

PS- The strategy trend on this forum seems to have evolved to the point where most people would advocate checking the BB with hands as strong as AK and folding top pair through levels 1-3, so that you are still alive to be in a position where you are forced to open push with 10-8s 5-handed with 5 BBs. I think this type of approach to SNGs worked much better a year or so ago... and even then it still wasn't as good as extracting maximum value at every level.

Re: 100% standard AJ raptor hand from sb.. in the 55s at least..
 

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against that mini bet I would probably checkraise the flop. You're usually ahead here, and $55 donkeys are still calling a checkraise with hands a lot weaker than AJ here.

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i like this line the least. ill give ya a minute to try to figure out why. open yer mind for just a minute, think broadly, think openly, and you will become better. AJ is the most enlightening hand in poker. holla

Re: 100% standard AJ raptor hand from sb.. in the 55s at least..
 

I see two viable strategies here.

1. Raise preflop and see if the limpers will fold. Nobody is showing any strength. Hell I think I've seen some aggressive maniac on this forum suggest moving all in when people limp to him on the small blind. If you get a caller or two, at least you've taken control of the betting.

2. Lead out with a probe bet on the flop. Often that will win it right there. If you get called, then check the turn unless it helps you. If you are raised then throw it away.

Your line seems way too passive.

Re: 100% standard AJ raptor hand from sb.. in the 55s at least..
 

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[ QUOTE ]
I don't understand. If you just refuse to play AJ then fold it pre-flop. If you can't play it with this flop what the hell are you doing in the hand. You've clearly decided that villian has an AK,AQ,set or 2 pair and carefully eliminated all other possibilities through some unknown power. Insight into the use of this power would be appreciated.

[/ QUOTE ]

i love it when people who have earned zero respect from me and have likely playedl ess than 500 sngs try to berate me instead of calmly asking questions.

ANYWAYS.. everyone seems very slow to grasp the fact that i never said i was sure i was beat. thats not the point is it? the point is, the risk reward ratio to gain those chips in there isnt worth it with this marginal holding. question mark. keep arguin tho i like it. holla

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fyp, at least, imho.

Re: 100% standard AJ raptor hand from sb.. in the 55s at least..
 

Here's my thoughts rap:

PF: Fine
Flop: C/C or C/R, either works for me. I prefer the latter because I hate min bets and I don't like the SD but either is fine.
Turn: Are you that scared of A8 or A9 or am I missing something? Any ace plays it the same way and you're beating most of them. The pot's not going to get huge all of a sudden, I just check call the whole thing down.

Re: 100% standard AJ raptor hand from sb.. in the 55s at least..
 

[ QUOTE ]
love it when people who have earned zero respect from me and have likely playedl ess than 500 sngs try to berate me instead of calmly asking questions.

ANYWAYS.. everyone seems very slow to grasp the fact that i never said i was sure i was beat. thats not the point is it? the point is, the risk reward ratio to gain those chips in there isnt worth it with this marginal holding. period. keep arguin tho i like it. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

I like the concept alot. In this case, the turn was about as safe as you could hope for, so I can see calling. But I really agree with the strategy of letting go of marginal holdings early even though I'm sure that I'm letting go of some winners.

The bubble play in SNGs is so poor and every chip lost early erodes FE. Plus, I look at it like every chip lost now is really like losing 2 chips when I double up later.

Re: 100% standard AJ raptor hand from sb.. in the 55s at least..
 

[ QUOTE ]
When you are playing short-stack poker (like a SNG), you are best served by getting chips into the pot whenever you rate to almost certainly have the best hand.

You played this hand like a little sissy on every street.

Irieguy

PS- The strategy trend on this forum seems to have evolved to the point where most people would advocate checking the BB with hands as strong as AK and folding top pair through levels 1-3, so that you are still alive to be in a position where you are forced to open push with 10-8s 5-handed with 5 BBs. I think this type of approach to SNGs worked much better a year or so ago... and even then it still wasn't as good as extracting maximum value at every level.

[/ QUOTE ]

irie get on aim im about to tear u a new one. holla

Re: 100% standard AJ raptor hand from sb.. in the 55s at least..
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
When you are playing short-stack poker (like a SNG), you are best served by getting chips into the pot whenever you rate to almost certainly have the best hand.

You played this hand like a little sissy on every street.

Irieguy

PS- The strategy trend on this forum seems to have evolved to the point where most people would advocate checking the BB with hands as strong as AK and folding top pair through levels 1-3, so that you are still alive to be in a position where you are forced to open push with 10-8s 5-handed with 5 BBs. I think this type of approach to SNGs worked much better a year or so ago... and even then it still wasn't as good as extracting maximum value at every level.

[/ QUOTE ]

irie get on aim im about to tear u a new one. holla

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HAHAHAHA no post it here I want to see this. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: 100% standard AJ raptor hand from sb.. in the 55s at least..
 

I appreciate your point about risk-reward ratio with marginal hands, and agree that if you save enough chips for the later rounds your opponents' weaknesses make your actual cards a secondary issue. Still, I would like to know what flops you continue with? By the logic of avoiding marginal hands, I would just muck AJ preflop (as I tend to do). I suppose the difference here is that you're SB? If not, I can't help but think that if you are only looking for a J-high unconnected, unsuited and otherwise safe flop, that entering the pot initially will be a losing wager.

Re: 100% standard AJ raptor hand from sb.. in the 55s at least..
 

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edit.. as for why i call the flop? are u kidding? why is everyone scared to see a turn? holla

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What turn is going to make you want to continue with this hand? A J? Gives you two pair, but also opens the doors to a fair number of draws that are realistic coming from this many limpers. I'm guessing an A coming isn't going to make you feel much better, either. The turn comes about as blank as it can and you're check folding. In this situation, I guess I don't really see the point of continuing past the flop if you're going to take this approach to the hand.

I'm probably leading on the turn, and if I get raised, then I'm done with it.

Re: 100% standard AJ raptor hand from sb.. in the 55s at least..
 

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I just check call the whole thing down.

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I agree. From the 55s I've been playing, I find that people like to take a stab at the pot a lot more than they do at lower levels. (Well at the lower levels, they'll push when they're 'taking a stab'), but I find these bets to be easy to call down.

It's not a whole lot of stack you lose. And if he's on a bluff, or a bad ace, there's a good chance he'll check the river behind you.

Re: 100% standard AJ raptor hand from sb.. in the 55s at least..
 

better question

why are you playing 55's

Re: 100% standard AJ raptor hand from sb.. in the 55s at least..
 

[ QUOTE ]
better question

why are you playing 55's

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combination of things.. too many vegas trips, im rusty cuz i havent played in over 2 weeks, im poor cuz of too many vegas trips.. medical and car insurance.. bills.. dont really wanna deal with 10k downswings.. ive always destroyed 55s.. haha, i duno, im there for a lil while though. no stress poker is the nuts. holla

Re: 100% standard AJ raptor hand from sb.. in the 55s at least..
 

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edit.. as for why i call the flop? are u kidding? why is everyone scared to see a turn? holla

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What turn is going to make you want to continue with this hand? A J? Gives you two pair, but also opens the doors to a fair number of draws that are realistic coming from this many limpers. I'm guessing an A coming isn't going to make you feel much better, either. The turn comes about as blank as it can and you're check folding. In this situation, I guess I don't really see the point of continuing past the flop if you're going to take this approach to the hand.

I'm probably leading on the turn, and if I get raised, then I'm done with it.

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jeeeez.. yall gotta learn to open up yer minds. im not always just calling to improve my hand. have yall never played a NL cash game or a mtt before? holla

Re: 100% standard AJ raptor hand from sb.. in the 55s at least..
 

Enlighten me man, I'm serious. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]
Because from Villain's perspective I see two guys check call a min bet on the flop and check the turn to me. I need two cards and a pulse to throw out 60 chips.

Re: 100% standard AJ raptor hand from sb.. in the 55s at least..
 

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By the logic of avoiding marginal hands, I would just muck AJ preflop (as I tend to do). I suppose the difference here is that you're SB?

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umm, yea, its 5 chips to call. im getting like 21509815918509 to 1. autocall. as for hands im looking for? its more about situations. holla

Re: 100% standard AJ raptor hand from sb.. in the 55s at least..
 

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jeeeez.. yall gotta learn to open up yer minds. im not always just calling to improve my hand. have yall never played a NL cash game or a mtt before? holla

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I don't see your point. You're calling hoping that there'll be no more bets so you can win a miniscule pot with top pair good kicker? It seems kind of unlikely that there's going to be no more betting through the hand. You're calling to show that you won't fold to a minbet, just a minbet followed by more turn action? My mind is open, just say something.

Re: 100% standard AJ raptor hand from sb.. in the 55s at least..
 

[ QUOTE ]
Enlighten me man, I'm serious. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]
Because from Villain's perspective I see two guys check call a min bet on the flop and check the turn to me. I need two cards and a pulse to throw out 60 chips.

[/ QUOTE ]

yes, YOU do. however, LOTS Of people slow down if they only have an ace after betting and getting two calls. a turn bet that looks significantly stronger can mean quite a bit of strength. thing is, even if it DOESNT, i dont really care.. were back to the risk reward thing again. holla

Re: 100% standard AJ raptor hand from sb.. in the 55s at least..
 

I take pretty much the same/similar line to UMTerp.

I dunno wtf you're doing folding on the turn here.

Another line that may be good is check/raising the flop for value to maybe t75 or to let your opponent define his/her hand further. If called you can continue to bet for value, although I'd rather just call down my opponent as I'm OOP.

Yugoslav

Re: 100% standard AJ raptor hand from sb.. in the 55s at least..
 

[ QUOTE ]
I take pretty much the same/similar line to UMTerp.

I dunno wtf you're doing folding on the turn here.

Another line that may be good is check/raising the flop for value to maybe t75 or to let your opponent define his/her hand further. If called you can continue to bet for value, although I'd rather just call down my opponent as I'm OOP.

Yugoslav

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im not throwing away chips on the turn.. thats what im doing. yes, this hand in particular looks extremely weak tight, and to people that know nothing about my game, would probably think im a knob. however, a lot of my game consists of making plays to pick up LOTS of pots in the CORRECT SITUATIONS. this is not one such situations. holla

Re: 100% standard AJ raptor hand from sb.. in the 55s at least..
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Enlighten me man, I'm serious. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]
Because from Villain's perspective I see two guys check call a min bet on the flop and check the turn to me. I need two cards and a pulse to throw out 60 chips.

[/ QUOTE ]

yes, YOU do. however, LOTS Of people slow down if they only have an ace after betting and getting two calls. a turn bet that looks significantly stronger can mean quite a bit of strength. thing is, even if it DOESNT, i dont really care.. were back to the risk reward thing again. holla

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I agree man, escalating bets normally want calls. But honestly, this could mean ANY ace. I really don't agree that an ace is getting scared into cheking behind on the turn here. He has an ace! AN ACE DAMMIT!!! [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: 100% standard AJ raptor hand from sb.. in the 55s at least..
 

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a lot of my game consists of making plays to pick up LOTS of pots in the CORRECT SITUATIONS. this is not one such situations. holla

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You know this, but if most of your value calls end up being correct you're probably not calling enough.

Re: 100% standard AJ raptor hand from sb.. in the 55s at least..
 

I think that I see the problem in calling or raising the turn:

It is a miniscule pot to win, but the risk of losing 120 or more chips is very high. No reason this early to gamble.

The turn is a Diamond (a 2 of any other suit couldn't possibly help Villain and he would have checked).

The bet here tells me that he at least has AdXd and wants a smaller Ace to bet. He is well ahead with any ace in his mind, and now has 9 additional outs to hit a flush.

Hero doesn't improve, nor does he pick up any way to improve on the river.

Fold to the t60 and move on.

SlackerMcNoob

Re: 100% standard AJ raptor hand from sb.. in the 55s at least..
 

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LOTS of pots in the CORRECT SITUATIONS

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Like, for instance, PaiGow Poker where you are a 3.75% dog, or risking your entire "real" BR on a BJ coinflip, or spending allnight PM'ing some ragass-polesucker [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Re: 100% standard AJ raptor hand from sb.. in the 55s at least..
 

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[ QUOTE ]
LOTS of pots in the CORRECT SITUATIONS

[/ QUOTE ]

Like, for instance, PaiGow Poker where you are a 3.75% dog, or risking your entire "real" BR on a BJ coinflip, or spending allnight PM'ing some ragass-polesucker [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

OH SNAP!

Re: 100% standard AJ raptor hand from sb.. in the 55s at least..
 

btw I never feel like I should respond to these threads as I have already discussed the hand but my basic view is that you must check raise the flop or call and bet out the turn. I have not yet been convinced otherwise by Rap (nor have I been torn a "new one", perhaps that is reserved for irie [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img])

Re: 100% standard AJ raptor hand from sb.. in the 55s at least..
 

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against that mini bet I would probably checkraise the flop. You're usually ahead here, and $55 donkeys are still calling a checkraise with hands a lot weaker than AJ here.

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It kinds of sucks when you get called and you are now out of position on the turn in a biggish pot. Damn.

edit: Actually, you can make a decent c/r and the pot doesn't have to get *that* big. But what's your plan when you get called?