Big pot with TPTK
 

Villain sat down this orbit. All my hand posts seem to be with no reads.. I hate 100bb stacks, I don't see a way I can control the pot here and still protect my hand.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (10 handed) converter

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

Button ($111.80)
SB ($94.40)
BB ($30.10)
UTG ($84.60)
UTG+1 ($100)
UTG+2 ($124.35)
MP1 ($102.80)
<font color="#C00000">Hero ($96)</font>
MP3 ($120.40)
<font color="#C00000">CO ($104.10)</font>

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $0.50.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, UTG+2 calls $1, MP1 calls $1, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $6</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, CO calls $6, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, UTG+2 folds, MP1 folds.

Flop: ($15.50) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $12</font>, CO calls $12.

Turn: ($39.50) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $25</font>, CO calls $25.

River: ($89.50) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, CO bets $61.60 (all-in), <font color="#CC3333">Hero calls $53 (all-in)</font>

Final Pot: $89.50

Re: Big pot with TPTK
 

I don't see much any way around this one. Maybe a river blocking bet, but your stack isnt really deep enough for a good one. Lousy TPTK, always getting us into trouble...

Re: Big pot with TPTK
 

The problem is, if you check the river he's betting any Queen and you feel obligate to call. Any bet and he may not call without the 8.

In any event, I bet more on the turn.

Why didn't you rebuy [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] It would have cost you $4 more! I don't think calling the river is 'solid' but not always certain. Tough spot =[

Re: Big pot with TPTK
 

[ QUOTE ]

In any event, I bet more on the turn.

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That commits us to calling the river anyways, no?

Re: Big pot with TPTK
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

In any event, I bet more on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

That commits us to calling the river anyways, no?

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It definately does, but at least you've got more money in before the draw hits or the river pairs.

Re: Big pot with TPTK
 

The turn bet really messed this hand up. A flush draw is probably going to stay in for that price, which means you have no idea where you're at on nearly any river card. I'd bet more on the turn and then just put in the rest on any river card (assuming you're willing to put in your entire stack). I don't like checking the river because your opponent will generally call with more hands than he'll bet with in this spot, but it's sorta messed up by the fact that he might still be in there on a flush draw (I don't think a flush draw bluffs often enough to make this a check though).

Another option with these stack sizes is to checkraise all-in on the turn, although I don't know if typical players in this game are aggressive enough to make this your best move.

I don't like playing pots this big with one pair but as far as I can see, the only two ways to avoid it here are to find a way to fold postflop, or to change your preflop play.

Re: Big pot with TPTK
 

seriously? everyone calls this, without reads? if you're gonna call anyway, a block seems to be sooo in order. since you didn't, i'd seriously fold. i refuse to believe that two lousy queens is good here more than ~40% of the time.

Re: Big pot with TPTK
 

With those numbers why would you fold?? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Re: Big pot with TPTK
 

gawd i'm sorry, it's 09:00 in the morning here in sweden and i've just finished a looooooooooooong session. well disregard. i don't think we're good often enough anyway.

Re: Big pot with TPTK
 

[ QUOTE ]
I hate 100bb stacks

[/ QUOTE ]

I have been thinking about how big the buy-in stack should be. If you are a good player but perhaps not the best player at the table, it seems like it's better to go with a medium stack around 50 bb instead. That way you still cover most of the poor players and you don't risk as much against the good players.

Thoughts?

Re: Big pot with TPTK
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you are a good player but perhaps not the best player at the table, it seems like it's better to go with a medium stack around 50 bb instead. That way you still cover most of the poor players and you don't risk as much against the good players.

Thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]
The nuts or close to it will stack the good players and the bad players. If you aren't buying in full because you are scared of the better players I think you should move down. Donks get big stacks sometimes too.

Adapting your play against players is a GOOD thing. Loosen up with position to isolate the donks and foldout the tighties; be (much) less likely to commit your stack with a hand like TPTK vs a tighty than a loosey. You already know how to do this, so don't buy in short.

Re: Big pot with TPTK
 

I have not played much 10 max. Is it standard to raise with AQ here? I always seems to remember some bad experinces with this hand at 10 man tables.

Re: Big pot with TPTK
 

I guess you are right. But I just recently began playing NL. I played limit before and as you know it takes a while to go from loving the TPTK to be careful with it. So at this moment I'm probably not good enough to have a full buy-in. And hey it's hard to move down from 0.10/0.20. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

When I started playing NL i played KQo, KJo, KTo, ATo and such hands alot more than I do now. I guess they are mainly good limit hands.

Now I'm aiming for a straight or a set. And of course TPTK with AK or AQ. I play 8-handed.

And of course I raised with AK every time when I began playing NL. I really don't like AK as much as I did playing limit. If I'm not first in with AK I hardly ever raise with it. Perhaps to isolate 1 loose limper once in a while.

My main weakness is that I am always afraid that I have a set up against me if I'm getting raised on the turn. If I have two pair and no straight or flush is possible and a tight player raises I'm always afraid of the set. And if I don't have top two (A5 from BB or something) and the board is AT95 I'm not very happy with my hand at all. Then it is easier having a small stack.

Cash games NL is so much different than SNG and tournaments. I have learned that the hard way. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I have read all the classic NL books. The one I like the most for cash games is probably "Championship nl &amp; pl hold 'em" by Cloutier.

Re: Big pot with TPTK
 

Well played. The other option is to push the river, as Villain might check behind with a worse queen which he surely won't fold if you push. I don't see myself getting away from this here.

Buying in for 50BB
 

Barry Greenstein's book points out that there are some advantages to buying in fairly short. The main one seems to be that you have a bigger stack when you are playing well / winning.

I gave this a try for a week or so (about 4000 hands) and results-wise I didnt notice much difference from buying in for 100BB. This was playing 6max 50c/$1.

Afterwards, I decided that playing 100BB was much simpler, especially when 3-tabling, as the way you play hands at 50BB should be different to playing them at 100BB. Having different stack sizes at different tables could un-necessarily confuse things.

I reasoned that if I was worried about being outplayed by big stacks to my left, it was better to switch tables (there are plenty more fish in the sea), and so i reverted to playing 100BB.

Re: Buying in for 50BB
 

If you have a smaller stack it seems like players doesn't recognize you as a good player as when you have a big stack. I think I have been getting more calls on my big hands when I have played with a smaller stack. But then again that could be variance.

And having 50bb doesn't change the way you play much. You still have quite a big stack. The thing that differs is of course calling raises which is harder to do because you get worse implied odds.

Re: Buying in for 50BB
 

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If you have a smaller stack it seems like players doesn't recognize you as a good player as when you have a big stack.

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I agree with this, to the extent that my 'default' rating of a 100BB player is higher than that for a 50BB player.

I think that having 100+BB against another player with 100+BB you can play more on the river,but with 50BB you are often pot-committed or all-in by the turn. For the better players, this is a big advantage.

Re: Buying in for 50BB
 

I guess I am a 50bb player at the moment. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
I have only played NL cash games for 3 weeks and 20 000 hands.
So I'm learning alot every time I play.

I have been studying alot prior to starting out with NL though but I need the playing experience. And one thing that is hardly mentioned in the books is how to play TP.
So that one has been the hardest part.

Re: Big pot with TPTK
 

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I don't like playing pots this big with one pair but as far as I can see, the only two ways to avoid it here are to find a way to fold postflop, or to change your preflop play.

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I'm lost on hands like these. Specifically, top pair OOP. Would love to see more comments.

What about checking the flop? I know he hit it, but the real problem is OP's preflop raise got called behind, and he's OOP for the hand.

I think the preflop raise is fine, I'd make it too to buy the button, but if unsuccessful I'd slow down immediately. With these cards, the caller has you over a barrel, and you're likely to win a small pot or lose a big one.

Check the flop, planning to call a modest bet, and either fold (more often) or checkraise and be done thereafter (less often) any bet of 2/3 pot or more.

Reasonable?

Or maybe checking invites too much aggression, and ~1/2 pot, say $7, would be better, fold to a raise?

Re: Big pot with TPTK
 

[/ QUOTE ]Another option with these stack sizes is to checkraise all-in on the turn, although I don't know if typical players in this game are aggressive enough to make this your best move.

[/ QUOTE ]

What about checking the turn here? I think if villain checks behind, it would be safe to assume he is on the draw. However if he bets, you are in a bind and do not have much info on what villain could have. Soah, what would be the purpose of the c/r here? Is it to end the hand here (since this is hard to play OOP) if villain is bluffing? I have been in the same situation as OP many times recently and think these types of hands are extremely difficult to play.

Re: Big pot with TPTK
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I hate 100bb stacks

[/ QUOTE ]

I have been thinking about how big the buy-in stack should be. If you are a good player but perhaps not the best player at the table, it seems like it's better to go with a medium stack around 50 bb instead. That way you still cover most of the poor players and you don't risk as much against the good players.

Thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually I was referring to the fact that 100bb is too short stacked. Pot sized bets on the flop and turn leaves less than a pot sized bet on the river. I hope online moves to 200bb stacks soon.

Re: Big pot with TPTK
 

Yeah, I don't like 100bb either sometimes. If you get 2 callers on a potsized bet on the flop you're practically allin right there, like this hand shows

Re: Big pot with TPTK
 

The main problem I see here, is raising 6 dollars preflop with AQ out of position on at least a couple possible callers. I believe I play more conservatively preflop than many, but I just don't like building a large pot for a hand like AQ that doesn't really have a whole lot of big hand potential beyond TPTK.

By raising 6x and a caller, you make the pot so large that making a pot sized bet at this point (which is probably the correct play) basically commits the rest of your stack with just a pair of queens. And this guy DID call a 6x preflop raise cold... he could very easily have KK or something of the likes.

Re: Big pot with TPTK
 

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I hope online moves to 200bb stacks soon.

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It has if you play at Absolute.

Re: Big pot with TPTK
 

6xbb in the CO with AQ and 2 limpers is fairly standard.

EDIT - Whoops. Thought hero was CO. But Hero does still have position on the 2 limpers.

Re: Big pot with TPTK
 

[ QUOTE ]
6xbb in the CO with AQ and 2 limpers is fairly standard.

EDIT - Whoops. Thought hero was CO. But Hero does still have position on the 2 limpers.

[/ QUOTE ]

Standard or not, I'm just saying these are situations I like to avoid, because I don't like commiting all of my chips with TPTK, which is what you are playing for with AQ.

Re: Big pot with TPTK
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I hate 100bb stacks

[/ QUOTE ]

I have been thinking about how big the buy-in stack should be. If you are a good player but perhaps not the best player at the table, it seems like it's better to go with a medium stack around 50 bb instead. That way you still cover most of the poor players and you don't risk as much against the good players.

Thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually I was referring to the fact that 100bb is too short stacked. Pot sized bets on the flop and turn leaves less than a pot sized bet on the river. I hope online moves to 200bb stacks soon.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yet another reason why I prefer 6-max. You'll have much more HU and 3 handed pots on the flop and much more room on latter streets.

Re: Big pot with TPTK
 

Tough spot. I'm probably playing it the same way and getting stacked.

Re: Big pot with TPTK
 

Having no reads sucks, but if you assume he's solid, he cold-called a solid raise preflop, so he must have 77,88,QQ, or AK of diamonds. We'll assume AA or KK would have reraised preflop, so rule those out.

There's one each left of 77,88, and QQ, and one AKd. We'll assume that he'll bluff with the missed diamond draw, though that may not be true and actually would push you towards folding. So it's 3:1 you're beat on the river.

On the river you have to call $53 to win $195.5 , so you need to be 27% to win to call. You are 25% to win, so on pot odds it's a very thin fold. It looks like calling and folding are about the same EV here.

However, with no reads I'd have to add in some donk-factor and err on the side of calling. There's also some chances of a split pot which push it towards calling.

Against a tight/passive player who's unlikely to bluff with a missed draw here, it's an easy fold.

Re: Big pot with TPTK
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you have a smaller stack it seems like players doesn't recognize you as a good player as when you have a big stack. I think I have been getting more calls on my big hands when I have played with a smaller stack

[/ QUOTE ]
I think there is something to be said about this; when I'm sitting on top of 300B I've been noticing that people tend to give me much more respect.

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When I started playing NL i played KQo, KJo, KTo, ATo and such hands alot more than I do now. I guess they are mainly good limit hands.

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Agreed - I never played Limit, but while trying to learn it I used SSHE (a limit book) - biiiig mistake. I only tend to play King-broadway hands for a button raise (limpers or no). I will open with ATo but fold to a rase UTG, and reraise with AJo if there are no callers if I have position on PFR. If my button is limped to I am raising with A6o+ to scoop all the limpers and blinds; if I'm called (not often it seems) and an A flops and my cbet gets called, its usually check/fold with weak aces. I think it's +EV.

Back on topic:
[ QUOTE ]
Another option with these stack sizes is to checkraise all-in on the turn, although I don't know if typical players in this game are aggressive enough to make this your best move.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm never purposefully putting my stack in with TPTK without a damn good read that villain is either drawing or calling down with a worse kicker. I don't often have enough information here. I think only worse hands are calling this move.

To the OP: I also like to get only two value bets in with TPTK. I'm check/calling that turn almost every time, be it a continuation bet that improved on the turn to TPTK or otherwise, without a good read that villain is drawing. I think checking the turn makes it easier to control pot size then value betting turn and checking the river. Most villains will take a free card on the turn if they are on the draw. I think it was played fine though. I guess you have to pay him off for only 2/3 pot.

Re: Big pot with TPTK
 

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[ QUOTE ]
I hope online moves to 200bb stacks soon.

[/ QUOTE ]

It has if you play at Absolute.

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How are the NL games at Absolute?

Re: Big pot with TPTK
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Another option with these stack sizes is to checkraise all-in on the turn, although I don't know if typical players in this game are aggressive enough to make this your best move.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm never purposefully putting my stack in with TPTK without a damn good read that villain is either drawing or calling down with a worse kicker. I don't often have enough information here. I think only worse hands are calling this move.

[/ QUOTE ]

If we can get him to put in over half his stack with a worse hand before folding then I'd say we've done an excellent job of both getting value and protecting our hand. And I don't really seeing you providing any betting alternatives... if this goes to showdown without your stack getting involved then you almost certainly have the best hand. I'm more concerned with keeping the pot small the times I lose, not the times I win...

Re: Big pot with TPTK
 

Your line looks good. I think you see a busted draw here a lot.

Results
 

Results: Villain shows A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and MHIG.

Re: Big pot with TPTK
 

if you can't fold in this spot, go 50.

Re: Big pot with TPTK
 

This thread is hilarious. Am I the only one who remembers how happy everyone was when Party switch to 100BB stacks??

I agree that I wish they would switch to 200BB or uncapped though. Uncapped buy-ins at Party would be... amazing.

Re: Big pot with TPTK
 

OP is getting 2.7:1. At what odds do you fold this?

Re: Big pot with TPTK
 

I don't like the pot to get too big with only one pair either. To keep the pot smaller I would consider 1/2 pot bets to protect your hand on the flop and turn. Closer to 1 pot bets increase the pot exponentially. The 1/2 pot is denying the flush draw or straight draw pot odds. Your opponent has implied odds too, but I don't think you are giving anything away by charging him 1/2 the pot. If he has more outs than 8 or 9 he is going to call most bets anyhow or raise.

This also has some good side effects outside of primary draws. You don't give too many chips away when you are already beaten, and you allow a few weaker hands to call a 1/2 pot bet rather than say a 4/5 pot bet on the flop. A 1/2 pot bet looks more like a continuation bet.

You will have to change it up and bet the pot once in awhile on bluffs or mediocre hands since you want him to call your 1 pot bets when you have a monster too.

Any thoughts on the 1/2 pot bet?

Re: Big pot with TPTK
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
6xbb in the CO with AQ and 2 limpers is fairly standard.

EDIT - Whoops. Thought hero was CO. But Hero does still have position on the 2 limpers.

[/ QUOTE ]

Standard or not, I'm just saying these are situations I like to avoid, because I don't like commiting all of my chips with TPTK, which is what you are playing for with AQ.

[/ QUOTE ]

I tend to agree w/ this statement. In NL AQ seems to lose way more big pot than it wins.

The reality is that you're going all-in on a guess, on someone else's terms. It's a bad position to be in.

If I had to take a stab on what he has, he called w/ suited connectors fell into the two pairs, and then the boat.

Unless you know him to be a tricky MFer, I fold.

Re: Big pot with TPTK
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't like the pot to get too big with only one pair either. To keep the pot smaller I would consider 1/2 pot bets to protect your hand on the flop and turn. Closer to 1 pot bets increase the pot exponentially. The 1/2 pot is denying the flush draw or straight draw pot odds. Your opponent has implied odds too, but I don't think you are giving anything away by charging him 1/2 the pot. If he has more outs than 8 or 9 he is going to call most bets anyhow or raise.

This also has some good side effects outside of primary draws. You don't give too many chips away when you are already beaten, and you allow a few weaker hands to call a 1/2 pot bet rather than say a 4/5 pot bet on the flop. A 1/2 pot bet looks more like a continuation bet.

You will have to change it up and bet the pot once in awhile on bluffs or mediocre hands since you want him to call your 1 pot bets when you have a monster too.

Any thoughts on the 1/2 pot bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

1/2 pot bets seem pretty good, odds aren't there for the draws and it controls the pot size much better, the only problem I see with it is that if I'm playing against myself here, me (with the flush draw) will make me (with tptk) lay down the best hand very often with a semi-bluff.