Call, call, call
 

You can see the UTG is posting, and this is his very first hand at the table. The rest of the table is pretty loose passive.

If there's anything that I would change, I think I would raise the river because it's heads up.

Paradise Poker 1/2 Hold'em (5 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is Button with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. UTG posts a blind of $1.
UTG (poster) checks, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (8 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, Hero calls, SB folds, BB calls.

Turn: (5.50 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, Hero calls, BB folds.

River: (7.50 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 9.50 BB

Re: Call, call, call
 

Hey Aaron,

I don't know how you can't raise that river against an unknown.

Re: Call, call, call
 

Don't play games in this pot. It's 4.5 BB already Raise the flop and knock out SB and BB. Or make them call two.

Re: Call, call, call
 

But why, though? The only OC is the A. There aren't any draws. Any 3 has us [censored] anyway. Who are we trying to drive out?

Re: Call, call, call
 

I think that river is a 100% must raise, always. I might raise the turn though. No guarantee he bets the river, and you might end up with only 2 BBs, instead of 3+.

Re: Call, call, call
 

This is a very good hand to post. Flop and turn play are A+ poker, and something I haven't worked into my game well. The question for me is the river. Given the propensity of players to slowplay trips, I think you're good on the river often enough to raise. I'd probably even call a 3bet since the pot would be pretty big, but that's likely wrong.

Re: Call, call, call
 

Grunch:

Raaaaaiiiiiissssssssssseeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee the river.

You strung him up. Time to let him drop.

Re: Call, call, call
 

Hey Aaron,

Nice hand. I think if you raise this river you have to be prepared to fold to a raise. Which is difficult against a complete unknown. Man, I have to work on my flop and turn play after reading this.

Re: Call, call, call
 

[ QUOTE ]
But why, though? The only OC is the A. There aren't any draws. Any 3 has us [censored] anyway. Who are we trying to drive out?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I over emphasized knocking out SB and BB. You raise because you clearly have the best hand and want to get money in the pot. He may 3-bet you with a Q. It may get CC behind you. Maybe you wait til the turn, but I'm not waiting for the river ever here.

Re: Call, call, call
 

Raise the turn. Although its likely UTG has a Q and will value bet most rivers, i think there is a good chance he has a PP or maybe even a weak Ace and will freeze up on the river.

Your thought process is good but with two hearts, 2 connected cards and the likelyhood of an ace sitting around i think you need to raise the turn... apart from all that its for value.

Re: Call, call, call
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hey Aaron,

Nice hand. I think if you raise this river you have to be prepared to fold to a raise. Which is difficult against a complete unknown. Man, I have to work on my flop and turn play after reading this.

[/ QUOTE ]

No way you can fold to a reraise on the river. QJ is a possibility and plus you have an overpair vs. an unknown and have shown no strength.

Re: Call, call, call
 

[ QUOTE ]
Raise the turn. Although its likely UTG has a Q and will value bet most rivers, i think there is a good chance he has a PP or maybe even a weak Ace and will freeze up on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

The reason I didn't raise the turn is because that mimics a slowplayed monster. If he has just a weak ace, he's probably not calling the turn raise. If he has a medium pocket pair... I don't know. First hand means no reads and I have no clue what he's doing. However, I do think that many villains can find a turn fold with medium pocket pairs if I raise there. It's just too strong of a move.

Re: Call, call, call
 

Hand posted in HUSH awhile back opened my eye to this sort of play and it's something I rarely think to do at the table (although I'm not sure it comes up that often). I like the idea here but I think you definitely have to raise a big street.

Re: Call, call, call
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Raise the turn. Although its likely UTG has a Q and will value bet most rivers, i think there is a good chance he has a PP or maybe even a weak Ace and will freeze up on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]


The reason I didn't raise the turn is because that mimics a slowplayed monster. If he has just a weak ace, he's probably not calling the turn raise. If he has a medium pocket pair... I don't know. First hand means no reads and I have no clue what he's doing. However, I do think that many villains can find a turn fold with medium pocket pairs if I raise there. It's just too strong of a move.

[/ QUOTE ]


Nice point. However I feel we are missing too much value trying to get 1 overcall on the turn here. In my experience, an UTG poster isnt folding too many hands to a turn raise.

Re: Call, call, call
 

Sorry Aaron, I can't look at this hand without wanting to scream [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

If this was a level a ways beyond goofball/idiot $1/2 I'd like how you played this. But in $1/2 I'm getting my bets in as often as I'm able until I think I'm no good.

I mean at the bare minmum, the rate at which $1/2 players call down just about anything, you (IMM) got LESS bets playing it like this. You could've stuck in a flop raise and had &gt;= 1/2bb extra; turn raise and you have &gt;= 1bb extra.

The guy is going to pay 1 bet/st (usually) anyway; I HAVE to get some extras in there w/this...

Mike

Re: Call, call, call
 

Yeah I really think these plays are better suited for higher limits, value bet and raise the [censored] out of these guys at 1/2.

Re: Call, call, call
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hey Aaron,

Nice hand. I think if you raise this river you have to be prepared to fold to a raise. Which is difficult against a complete unknown. Man, I have to work on my flop and turn play after reading this.

[/ QUOTE ]

You cannot fold to a reraise on the river. Unknown at these stakes will have QJ, AQ, any Q more than often enough to pay off. I think the best play is to raise the flop, as I would expect at least one of SB and BB to call a raise often. If you do wait to raise, I think waiting till the river is best once it's HU.

Re: Call, call, call
 

i could find a river raise here.

Re: Call, call, call
 

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah I really think these plays are better suited for higher limits, value bet and raise the [censored] out of these guys at 1/2.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, at 30/60, this is probably an easy flop fold. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Okay, so players acting behind you are getting 10:1 on their flop call with an expectation of (at most) ~ 4 bb on turn and river (u won't be raising a turn ace and u can get out if there's a raise on turn and river at this level safely if an ace falls i believe) if they hit at most their 3 outer. So, let's say 18:1 for a three outer, which is about break even. Now factor in the dumb calls they will will make with J10o and the small pps that will come along and the chance that UTG already has a 3 and their adjusted outs is &lt;3. So they lose by calling and the money goes into your pocket most of the times.

In conclusion, don't raise the flop. Raise the river.

Re: Call, call, call
 

I understand the flop call, but please raise the turn. Charge those flush draws, get another bet out of that Q, hell charge those 1/2 idiots to draw to an A - they'll probably call.

Given that you didn't, why the hell would you call the river. How many unknowns donk trips into a PFR? What else are you afraid of - QJ?

Re: Call, call, call
 

I think you have to raise somewhere. For me the [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] on the turn makes me want to raise there. BB will call most hands for 2 bets that he'll call for 1 though now he'll only be getting 4.25-1 instead of 8.5-1.

The river raise will get fewer calls from hands that you beat.

What's your move if you raise the turn and UTG reraises?