State sponsored suicide bombings by children
 

In a thread below, I claimed that:

1. Arab schools teach children to hate Israel and the west, and that it is honorable to destroy the infidels.

2. Arab schools and Arab society teach and encourage children to become suicide bombers.

3. Children are encouraged to become suicide bombers through propaganda campaigns consisting of cartoons depicting suicide bombers as heroes to be emulated.

4. Arab states sanction and financially support suicide bombings, and the teaching of schoolchildren to become suicide bombers.

5. Arab states financially support a number of terrorist groups.

I had assumed that all of this was common knowledge, but to my surprise, someone challenged me to present some evidence for this, so here are some links.


Palestinian Authority links:

1. Children Learn to Laud Palestinian Suicide Bombers • On the Children’s Club (a Sesame Street-like children's program broadcast on PA-controlled TV) Statements about what is supported by the PA. Requires Acrobat Reader.

2. Palestinian child martyrs

3.'Paradise Camps' teach children to be suicide bombers


Iran:

4. Folk story about suicide bomber in Iranian Children's Newspaper (Illustrated) Do not install language unless you want to read it in Arabic.


Report on state supported terrorist groups and suicide bombing:

5. Suicide bombing attacks against Israeli civilians Note section VI on financial and logistical support, and VII on the role of the PA.

Re: State sponsored suicide bombings by children
 

Could not get into the first ultra secret organizations website.


Ignored the next 3 as obvious propoganda from dubious sources.

Generally agreed with the last. Suicide bombings are something that a human rights organization should condemn. I have read some of the many reports from Amnesty that condemn this as well. No big deal.

I was curious why you labelled the links with the lead in: Palestinian Authority Links.


Out of curiousity the diarrhea of words, by all parties,on the other thread was about this. The more interesting question is why this happens - and not that it happens.

Re: State sponsored suicide bombings by children
 

Could not get into the first ultra secret organizations website.

Why not? I just did. It takes a few seconds to load, and you need Acrobat Reader to read the pdf. It has a compilation from a variety of news sources about PA sponsorship. That's why I labeled them that way.

Ignored the next 3 as obvious propoganda from dubious sources.

If you bothered to read it you would know that number 4 is an example of a "children's book" written for Iranian children of the type that I mentioned. You can dismiss everything as not from a credible source if you want to, but there are plenty of other examples from many sources, including the ones I saw on national news. I just picked that one at random, and it isn't the most over the top. Here, maybe you'll believe the Jeruselem Post instead:

Jeruselem Post

Read it in Arabic if you think it's propaganda. It's terrorist propaganda, yes. You don't learn anything new by ignoring everything you don't agree with. If you do that, you're no better than those you claim to despise for suposedly doing the same thing.

Generally agreed with the last. Suicide bombings are something that a human rights organization should condemn. I have read some of the many reports from Amnesty that condemn this as well. No big deal.

Read the sections that detailed how these organizations get their funding.

Out of curiousity the diarrhea of words, by all parties,on the other thread was about this. The more interesting question is why this happens - and not that it happens.

No, I was told that "I didn't have a shred of evidence to support what I was saying, and I was just making things up". So the interesting thing for me, and the next step for the other posters, was to prove that there is evidence that it happens, and that it is supported by the state. If some person tells me I don't know what I'm talking about, we're going to go to the mat every time. It may take a little work, but I won't be the one proven to be ignorant of facts. Then maybe next time I give an informative statement, certain parties will open their mind and listen and learn something before they open their big yap and call me a liar. I don't appreciate that.

Re: State sponsored suicide bombings by children
 

I ignored the middle three based on the URLs and the knowledge that the last was from a source worth reading. No regrets, cant read every thing on the web and a known relatively unbiased source is better than some apparently biased ones.

Still dont see the point you are making, other than suicide bombings happen, martyrdom is glorified. But that is all pretty clear. Non of this reflects on why it happens or what it means.

MMM seems to think that this means that Islam is a bad, bad religion. I think it is because all religions are bad and teach hatred of and intolerance of other religions (to varying degrees as the world cycles through eco-political cycles).

I think that the timing of Islam being the religion doing the killing (along with the Zionists, but that is a separate discussion perhaps) these days is because that group as a whole is being persecuted by the rest of the world. There are few safe havens today for muslims - Balkans, Kashmir, Palestine, India, US (after 9/11), now what US has done to Iraq, some of the middle east run by US supported dictators (Saddam in the 80s, Shah in the 70s and 80s, House of Saud, Qatar, Oman, UAE presently)-- they fear what this means to them, turn more inward, criticize each other less (family unit coming together in a crisis), making them easy targets for zealots trying to persuade innocents to strap on bombs and press red buttons.

Note that muslims in the far east are a bit less restive as they live in slightly better political situations (Indonesia comes to mind) though now they are being infiltrated and used by middle east zealots.

I still dont get the point of your original post, so have sort of rambled above.


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Incidentally the error i get with the first link is, i use PDFs all the time in my work.

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Re: State sponsored suicide bombings by children
 

I stated that if you want to know what the Arab state's real attitude is towards Israel and the west, you can't go by what they say publicly because they are duplicitous. A better indicator is to look at what they teach in their government controlled schools, and I stated what I knew that was. That was challenged for lack of evidence, hence the links that show what is being taught and encouraged by the state and by society in general. It also shows that money from several Arab states is being used to fund Islamic Jihad, Hamas, and other groups, so those states must support the objectives of these groups. In the case of Hamas, that objective is the anhiliation of Israel.

Re: State sponsored suicide bombings by children
 

[ QUOTE ]
It also shows that money from several Arab states is being used to fund Islamic Jihad, Hamas, and other groups, so those states must support the objectives of these groups

[/ QUOTE ]

I know the United States is trying to stifle funding to these groups. I wonder if having 140K in troops in the region is influencing the success of those efforts.

Stu

Re: State sponsored suicide bombings by children
 

'so those states must support the objectives of these groups. In the case of Hamas, that objective is the anhiliation of Israel. '

u realize israel helped found hamas?

Re: State sponsored suicide bombings by children
 

Here's the text of the first memo, in case you can't open the pdf.

APRIL 9, 2002
The Support Network of Palestinian Suicide Bombers
“Those governments, like Iraq, that reward parents for the sacrifice of their children are guilty of soliciting
murder of the worst kind. I expect better leadership, and I expect results….They're not martyrs. They're
murderers. And they undermine the cause of the Palestinian people.”
President Bush, April 4, 2002
Israel's current military operation is aimed at uprooting the terrorist infrastructure operating from
Palestinian territory and reducing the Palestinians' ability to launch suicide attacks against Israelis.
Palestinian leaders, including Yasir Arafat, have been encouraging the use of suicide bombings against
Israeli civilians. The Palestinian Authority and Arab states have been providing financial incentives in
support of these and other terrorist attacks. Religious leaders and educational materials promote acts of
"martyrdom" against Israelis.
Palestinian Leadership Continuously Calls for Suicide Bombers
· “We are all potential martyrs, the whole Palestinian people.” Yasir Arafat said. Then, referring to the
Netanya suicide bomber, that killed 27 Israelis at a Passover Seder, Arafat added, “Oh God, give me
martyrdom like this.” (The Washington Post, March 30, 2002)
· It would be unfair to deprive a suicide bomber of the title of shahid, [a martyr who fell in the process of
fulfilling a religious command, the “Jihad” or “Holy war”] said Palestinian information minister Yaser
Abed Rabbo. (The New York Times, April 4, 2002)
· Friday mosque sermons broadcast on PA controlled TV have called on worshipers to arm themselves or
their children with explosives to pursue holy war against the Jews. (The New York Times, Apr. 2, 2002)
“They think that they scare our people. We tell them: in as much as you love life, the Muslim loves death
and martyrdom. There is a great difference between he who loves the hereafter and he who loves this
world. The Muslim loves death and [strives for] martyrdom. He does not fear the oppression of the
arrogant or the weapons of the blood-letters. The blessed and sacred soil of Palestine has vomited all the
invaders and all the colonialists throughout history and it will soon vomit, with Allah’s help, the [present]
occupiers.” --July 8, 2001, Sheikh ‘Ikrimeh Sabri, the highest-ranking cleric in the PA, in the Al-Aqsa
Mosque in Jerusalem.
PAGE TWO
Financial Incentives to Choose “Martyrdom”
· On March 28, leaders of the Arab League met for a summit in Beirut and pledged $330 million over six
months to support the Palestinian Authority, plus an additional $150 million to support the Palestinian
“uprising.” (The Washington Post, March 29, 2002)
· Iraq’s Saddam Hussein increased his financial pledge to Palestinian families of suicide bombers from
$10,000 to $25,000. (Associated Press, April 3, 2002)
· A quasi-governmental committee in Saudi Arabia last year pledged $5,333 to “each family that has
suffered from martyrdom.” (The Washington Post, April 9, 2002)
· The Israeli military finds a “terror invoice” signed by Chairman Yasir Arafat authorizing payment for
ceremonies honoring suicide bombers, as well as money to support families of the suicide bombers. (The
Washington Post, April 3, 2002; MSNBC, April 3, 2002)
Social Incentives to Choose “Martyrdom”
· Far from condemning the Palestinian suicide bombers, the Arab League summit’s final communiqué
praised Palestinian suicide bombers: “We address a greeting of pride and honor to the … valiant intifada,”
it said. “We greet with honor and pride the valiant martyrs of the intifada.” (The Washington Post, March
29, 20020)
· The suicide bomber improves his or her social status after death as well as that of his or her family. The
father of the suicide bomber who killed 21 Israeli teenagers at a Tel-Aviv discothèque said, “I am very
happy and proud of what my son did and, frankly, am a bit jealous.… I wish I had done it myself.” (The
Jerusalem Post, Aug. 15, 2001)
· Palestinian students at al-Najah University in the city of Nablus glorified suicide bombings in an
exhibition entitled The Sbarro Cafe Exhibition, celebrating the August 9, 2001, suicide bombing of the
Sbarro pizza restaurant in Jerusalem, which killed 15 people and wounded dozens more. (Associated
Press, Sept. 23, 2001)
· Suicide bombers also become heroic figures once they have committed attacks. Their names and
faces appear on posters and in graffiti in the streets of major Palestinian cities. Calendars are
illustrated with the "martyr of the month," and paintings glorify the dead bombers in Paradise. A
recent invoice, found in Arafat’s headquarters, makes it apparent that in the case of the al-Aqsa
Martyrs Brigade, the PA itself pays for this publicity. This publicity not only rewards suicide
bombers but it also encourages other men and women to carry out more attacks.
Children Learn to Laud Palestinian Suicide Bombers
· On the Children’s Club (a Sesame Street-like children's program broadcast on PA-controlled TV), a
young boy sings: “When I wander into Jerusalem, I will become a suicide bomber.” (The Jerusalem Post,
Aug. 15, 2001)
· Four summer camps are currently training eight to 12-year-olds for suicide bombings. (The Jerusalem
Post, Aug. 15, 2001)

Re: State sponsored suicide bombings by children
 

Hmm. Let's have a look at what you are claiming now, compare it to what you origninally claimed, and see how both of them stand up:

"1. Arab schools teach children to hate Israel and the west, and that it is honorable to destroy the infidels."

All your links but one point to Palestinian publications. The other is an Iranian children's newspaper. Iran is not an Arab country. The article, which is hardly from impeccable sources (the IDF itself) presents no evidence of any state or educational support for the publication. All it demonstrates is that there are people in the Muslim world who create pro-Hamas/IJ propaganda. This is hardly up for debate. None of your links demonstrate any teaching praising the suicide bombers in state-run schools, whether Palestinian or other Arab ones. One of them points to an Islamic Jihad training camp for children. Again, that Islamic Jihad tries to indoctrinate people in favour of suicide bombings is hardly under question. That it includes chilren is lamentable - this was not your claim, and not what I questioned. Furthermore, they all relate to suicide bombings against Israel; you have offered no evidence concerning children being encourage to hate the west or kill "infidels," in Palestine or any other Arab country. This is rather pathetic, as it would be pretty easy to find at elast one example of a school (most likely a fundamentalist Saudi religious school) that encouraged something along those lines, though I doubt if you could come close to showing that state schools in most Arab countries encourage this.

"2. Arab schools and Arab society teach and encourage children to become suicide bombers. "

Again, no evidence of anything about schools, and none of Arab society encouraging children to become suicide bombers outside of Palestine.

"3. Children are encouraged to become suicide bombers through propaganda campaigns consisting of cartoons depicting suicide bombers as heroes to be emulated."

Bruce, this is what you wrote, and what I queried:

"As for "most Arab governments", that depends on if you go by what they do, or if you are gullible and go by what the tell the west their policy is. If you want to know what their true attitude is, look at what the government controlled schools teach their kids. That it is their duty to hate the west, to hate Israel, and that it is an honroable purpose to kill all the infidels who trespass on their land."

You referred to "most Arab governements", and governement-controlled schools. You said nothing about the existnece of pro-suicide bombing propaganda directed towards children. Of course some exists - it's created by the suicide bombers and their supporters. Again, you wrote about "most Arab governement" state schools.


"4. Arab states sanction and financially support suicide bombings, and the teaching of schoolchildren to become suicide bombers. "

Er, you didn't say this either. At all. Almost certainly Hamas and IJ receive somne financial support from other countries, mainly Iran (not and Arab country), and Syria. This isn't most arab states, but anyway, this was not somethng I disputed, as you didn't claim it. It does not in anyway follow from this that most Arab countries teach their children to kill Jews, hate the West and kill trespassing infidels.

"5. Arab states financially support a number of terrorist groups."

Again, you didn not claim this. I don't dispute that some Arab states support terrorist groups.

Finally, this is what the HRW report you link to says about the PA's responsibility for terrorism:

"However, on the basis of evidence available through the end of September, 2002, Human Rights Watch did not find evidence demonstrating that President Arafat or other senior PA officials ordered, planned, or carried out suicide bombings or other attacks against civilians. While senior PA officials fostered an atmosphere of impunity, we also did not find evidence that they authorized specific attacks or attacks against civilians generally, or that PA officials or institutions organized or assisted in preparing or carrying out attacks against civilians systematically or as a matter of policy. The "memo to Tirawi" suggests that at least some senior PA officials viewed these attacks favorably, but, as discussed in Section V, the PA and the Fatah political leadership did not have the effective control over the actions of the al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades necessary to establish criminal liability under the doctrine of command responsibility."

The funding section offers some anecodotal evidence both for and against the idea that PA funds find there way into Fatah, and from their into the al-Asqa martyr brigades (though not enough for them to conclude that the PA could be held crimninally responsible for al-Asqa actions), and none of PA "financial support" for Hamas, which is what you actually claimed.

Re: State sponsored suicide bombings by children
 

"I stated that if you want to know what the Arab state's real attitude is towards Israel and the west, you can't go by what they say publicly because they are duplicitous. A better indicator is to look at what they teach in their government controlled schools, and I stated what I knew that was. That was challenged for lack of evidence, hence the links that show what is being taught and encouraged by the state and by society in general. It also shows that money from several Arab states is being used to fund Islamic Jihad, Hamas, and other groups, so those states must support the objectives of these groups. In the case of Hamas, that objective is the anhiliation of Israel. "

You've offerd no evidence for what is taught in most Arabic government-run schools. You've offered no evidence that they teach children to hate the west and kill infidels. You've offered evidence that there is some PA propaganda in favour of suicide bombings, that the bombers themselves try to indoctrinate children, and that "several" (what happended to "most"?) states fund Hamas and IJ. It does not follow from this that most Arabic government run schools teach children to hate the West and kill infidels.

Re: State sponsored suicide bombings by children
 

How about you modify your original claim to "Several Middle Eastern governments, in particular Syria and Iran, financially support Palestinian terror groups, and those groups indoctrinate children about suicide bombings, as do some PA-sanctioned media". Drop the stuff about most Arab governments, their state-run schools, and killing "tresspassing infidels", and we might actually be able to more or less agree on something. Or do we have to "go to the mat" again? Er, "bring it on."

Re: State sponsored suicide bombings by children
 

You read about on a par with the other leftists on this page. I can lead you to water, but I can't make you read. I can see I'm not going to have much time for this. I can't be working my ass off to dig up evidence that I've already seen of things that I and most people know are true just to convince you when you won't be convinced no matter what I show you, unless you want to pay my research fee. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

All your links but one point to Palestinian publications.

RRRRR, wrong. The last one references a number of other countries.

Iran is not an Arab country.

It is printed in Kuwait, and it says it is distributed by internet "throughout the muslim world".

The article, which is hardly from impeccable sources (the IDF itself)

RRRRR. See the same article I posted from the Jeruselem post.

presents no evidence of any state or educational support for the publication.

It says it's printed in Kuwait, and distributed to schoolchildren by internet throughout the muslim world. In the Arab world, nothing is allowed by print or internet that isn't under government control. The government controls this propaganda (I'll let you verify *that* if you don't know it).

None of your links demonstrate any teaching praising the suicide bombers in state-run schools, whether Palestinian or other Arab ones.

What do you call this?
Friday mosque sermons broadcast on PA controlled TV have called on worshipers to arm themselves or
their children with explosives to pursue holy war against the Jews. (The New York Times, Apr. 2, 2002)

This is rather pathetic

That's for sure. LOL And there is more evidence I could have put up specifically about what is being taught in Arab schools if this wasn't enough, I thought it was plenty. I know what is taught in the schools because I've seen interviews with those that attended those schools, and with the parents. See my post in the other thread, and M has some info on this too. But what good would it do? If I showed you 10 articles about 10 schools, you'd still just say "oh that's 10 schools out of the whole Arab world". You have a certain worldview you want to believe, and that is what you're going to believe no matter what anyone shows you. I look at the amount of evidence and the extreme nature of the evidence, and I say there is clearly a pervasive problem here, that can't exist without widespread cultural and governmental support. I have my read, and you have yours. If you want to believe all the antecdotes we read about are some isolated nut cases, and they live on an island surrounded by normal people, go right ahead. I hope you don't try to use that reading ability at poker, or if you do I want you at my table.

Bruce, this is what you wrote, and what I queried:

"As for "most Arab governments", that depends on if you go by what they do, or if you are gullible and go by what the tell the west their policy is. If you want to know what their true attitude is, look at what the government controlled schools teach their kids. That it is their duty to hate the west, to hate Israel, and that it is an honroable purpose to kill all the infidels who trespass on their land."

You referred to "most Arab governements", and governement-controlled schools. You said nothing about the existnece of pro-suicide bombing propaganda directed towards children. Of course some exists - it's created by the suicide bombers and their supporters. Again, you wrote about "most Arab governement" state schools.

I specifically mentioned the suicide bombing propaganda directed towards children, go look again. I said this is how we can investigate this, and that is what I've done for some states. I never claimed it was true of all states, or that I planned to be comprehensive. You claimed there was not a shred of evidence, and I provided plenty of shreds to get you started.

"5. Arab states financially support a number of terrorist groups."

Again, you didn not claim this. I don't dispute that some Arab states support terrorist groups.

That was the larger point I was making which started the whole thing, that the Arab states support terrorist groups, some of which have stated their objective to destroy Israel. You said you didn't agree, and the stuff about what they teach in schools was just one way to prove that. If you now agree that Arab states support these terrorist groups, then fine, it sounds like you're convinced now.

But however you want to nit pick these issues and the wordings of my claims, you're missing the bigger picture here as is typical. There is ample evidence here of cultural acceptance of using children for suicide bombings against Israel, and propaganda being circulated to encourage this. These children are exploited by terrorist groups which receive government funding by states with full knowlege of this practice. How can you sit there and tell me that such conditions can exist without widespread indoctrination of the children and all the people in a philosophy of hatred and violence towards Israel, and the support of the objectives of Hamas whose stated objectives are to destroy Israel?

How about you modify your original claim to "Several Middle Eastern governments, in particular Syria and Iran, financially support Palestinian terror groups, and those groups indoctrinate children about suicide bombings, as do some PA-sanctioned media". Drop the stuff about most Arab governments, their state-run schools, and killing "tresspassing infidels", and we might actually be able to more or less agree on something.

Sounds good to me, that's really all I ever claimed. Cal Thomas made the "most Arab" statement, not me. I just said we can find out if it's true by looking at what experts know about the financial support (last article) and by looking at what is taught in state run schools. State sponsored media is fine too, I don't care *how* the state indoctrinates the youth. But I know I can also find evidence for what is taught in schools in a number of countries, because I've heard interviews with people who attended those schools, and from parents who have had children in those schools. I can't post the interview in the web, but I'm sure I can find it documented somewhere. As for "killing infidels", of course they do, who else are the suicide bombers killing?

Re: State sponsored suicide bombings by children
 

[ QUOTE ]
All your links but one point to Palestinian publications.

RRRRR, wrong. The last one references a number of other countries

[/ QUOTE ]

Not regarding pro-suicide bombing propaganda, which is what I'm referring to here; it refers to other countries regarding funding for Hamas, IJ, and AAM.


"It says it's printed in Kuwait, and distributed to schoolchildren by internet throughout the muslim world. In the Arab world, nothing is allowed by print or internet that isn't under government control. The government controls this propaganda (I'll let you verify *that* if you don't know it)."

It says it's distributed on the internet, which means it's available to anyone with internet access, except as you point out in certain countries where some pages are censored. It does not offer any evidence that Arab countries either permit or encourage its dissemination to children on the internet. All it shows is that someone has published suicide-bombing propaganda directeed at children on the net. It has nothing to do with schools, and nothing to do with "tresspassing infidels."

"Friday mosque sermons broadcast on PA controlled TV have called on worshippers to arm themselves or
their children with explosives to pursue holy war against the Jews."

Er, I call it a call from a mosque, broadcast on TV. I see no mention of schools, or other Arab countries. I've acknowledged that there is some propaganda of the type you describe diseeminated through PA media; maybe your comprehension and/or short-term memory skills could use a little work.

"I never claimed it was true of all states, or that I planned to be comprehensive. You claimed there was not a shred of evidence, and I provided plenty of shreds to get you started. "

You claimed it was true of "most." That's what I asked for evidence for. I said claimed you hadn't offered any evidence; you hadn't, and you still haven't offered any for the "most", "state-run schools", and "tresspassing infidels" claims.

"That was the larger point I was making which started the whole thing, that the Arab states support terrorist groups, some of which have stated their objective to destroy Israel. You said you didn't agree, and the stuff about what they teach in schools was just one way to prove that. If you now agree that Arab states support these terrorist groups, then fine, it sounds like your convinced.

But however you want to nit pick these issues and the wordings of my claims, you're missing the bigger picture here as is typical. There is ample evidence here of cultural acceptance of using children for suicide bombings against Israel, and propaganda being circulated to encourage this. These children are exploited by terrorist groups which receive government funding by states with full knowlege of this practice. How can you sit there and tell me that such conditions can exist without widespread indoctrination of the children and all the people in a philosophy of hatred and violence towards Israel, and the support of the objectives of Hamas whose stated objectives are to destroy Israel?"

I wasn't responding to your "larger" point. I asked for evidence for, and specifically disagreed with, your claim that state-run schools in most Arab countries taught children to hate the West and kill "tresspassing infidels." You still haven't offered any evdence for this, and seem to be dropping it. I did not say I disagreed with the claim that some Arab governements fund terrorist groups.

"I specifically mentioned the suicide bombing propaganda directed towards children, go look again."

In the post I asked for evidence for, and disagreed with, you did not. I'll quote it again:

"The experts who make their living studying such things tell us that these terrorist groups such as Hamas wouldn't be able to operate in the manner they do without the financial sponsorship of the state. You don't think Arafat could shut them down if he wanted to? You're spinning.

As for "most Arab governments", that depends on if you go by what they do, or if you are gullible and go by what the tell the west their policy is. If you want to know what their true attitude is, look at what the government controlled schools teach their kids. That it is their duty to hate the west, to hate Israel, and that it is an honroable purpose to kill all the infidels who trespass on their land. "

You are now trying to claim that there are only nitpicking dfferences betwen the claims that "Several Middle Eastern governments give financial support to Palestinian terrorist groups, and there is some propaganda aimed at indoctrinating children in favour of these groups (including some in offical PA media", and the statement that "Most Arab governments teach children in government-run schools teach children to hate the West and to kill tresspassing infidels." There is a world of difference.

Re: State sponsored suicide bombings by children
 

"The article, which is hardly from impeccable sources (the IDF itself)

RRRRR. See the same article I posted from the Jeruselem post. "

This is teh attribution from the JP article: "by VJ's IDF Sources". It's the same article, from the same source.

Re: State sponsored suicide bombings by children
 

Not regarding pro-suicide bombing propaganda, which is what I'm referring to here; it refers to other countries regarding funding for Hamas, IJ, and AAM.

That's all I was intending to show, that a number of other countries support these terrorist groups. That was my main point, the suicide bombing was just one way to show that.

It says it's distributed on the internet, which means it's available to anyone with internet access, except as you point out in certain countries where some pages are censored.

Right, and that means it's available in the countries where it's censored, so the government lets it through. It is well known that the government supports propaganda of this kind.

Er, I call it a call from a mosque, broadcast on TV. I see no mention of schools, or other Arab countries. I've acknowledged that there is some propaganda of the type you describe diseeminated through PA media; maybe your comprehension and/or short-term memory skills could use a little work.

You just admitted that in your last post that I was responding to, check *your* short term memory. If you admit that, then you've made my case for me. The government supports propaganda aimed at getting kids to become suicide bombers and blow up as many Israeles as they can. Done. I win. As for the schools, I know I can find evidence for that because I've seen the evidence as I describe in my recent addition to the last post, but I don't need that anymore. I only needed that to show that the government supports this propaganda, and you agree with that so I'm done.

I did not say I disagreed with the claim that some Arab governements fund terrorist groups.

2 for 2.

"I specifically mentioned the suicide bombing propaganda directed towards children, go look again."

In the post I asked for evidence for, and disagreed with, you did not. I'll quote it again:

You haven't read the newest additions to that thread yet.

"The experts who make their living studying such things tell us that these terrorist groups such as Hamas wouldn't be able to operate in the manner they do without the financial sponsorship of the state.

This is why I inluded the financial link. To show how much money they get from these states, and to show that they would be severely limited without state support.

I also added some stuff to the previous post in this thread, probably while you were writing.

The bottom line is, I believe that Arab countries (and I never said most, show me where I said most)

As for "most Arab governments", that depends on if you go by what they do, or if you are gullible and go by what the tell the west their policy is. If you want to know what their true attitude is, look at what the government controlled schools teach their kids. That it is their duty to hate the west, to hate Israel, and that it is an honroable purpose to kill all the infidels who trespass on their land. "

That's not saying anything about what I think most Arab governments do. If you think it does, maybe you should get your comprehension checked. It's saying if you listen to what they tell the west, then you're gullible, no matter what they actually do, and if you want to know what they do, here's how to go about finding out. I have done this for *some* Arab governments, which is all I claimed at the top of this thread. I happen to believe that I can do it for more, I don't know about most, as in 12/22, I didn't put it in those terms.

I'm happy with your final conclusion. I know much more and I could prove more, but that's all I really care to prove.

Re: State sponsored suicide bombings by children
 

But it's reprinted in the Jeruselem post, so they must consider this a reliable source.

Re: State sponsored suicide bombings by children
 

Well, I too would take issue with your statement regarding Arab states. Lets look at:

Saudi Arabia: The state is pro-US and is supported by the US in keeping its population in check

Egypt: Same as above.

Qatar, Kuwait, Oman, UAE: Same as above but to different degrees.

Iraq: was happily neutral, raping and pillaging their own popoulations and wealth until 1991 when the US Ambassador gave ambiguous signal to Saddam prior to his dumbass takeover of attempt if Kuwait.

Turkey: Not arab, but muslim, still friendly.

Morocco, Tunis -- I dont know.

Whatever I missed I dont know.

The only states that are against the US are Iran and Syria.

Hamas' attitude could be elimination of Israel or the betterment of the Palestinians. To them those two are the same thing.

Re: State sponsored suicide bombings by children
 

"Done. I win. As for the schools, I know I can find evidence for that because I've seen the evidence as I describe in my recent addition to the last post, but I don't need that anymore. I only needed that to show that the government supports this propaganda, and you agree with that so I'm done. "

Gah. I asked about government-run schools in Arab countries teaching children to hate the West and that it's honorable to kill "tresspassing infidels". You've responded with PA propaganda about suicide bombings against Israelis and the assertion that some Arab countries fund terrorists, neither of which I mentioned or queried.

I'll say it one more time: I asked for proof regarding , and described as fiction, your claim that state run schools in Arabic countries (I believe you meant most, but it doesn't matter right now as you've not done it for any) teach children to hate the West, and that it would be honourable for them to kill "trespassing infidels." If you have proof for this, then just show it.

Re: State sponsored suicide bombings by children
 

Saudi Arabia: The state is pro-US and is supported by the US in keeping its population in check

They are very duplicitous, putting on a good face for us while stabbing us in the back.

There is a book out now with strong evidence that members of the Saudi Royal family knew about 911 before it occurred and didn't tell the US. This is based on testimony obtained through interrogation of a high ranking Al Qaeda. The information is credible because of the interesting way it was obtained which I won't attempt to describe in this box, and he revealed verifiable information implicating several powerful individuals in government and industry including a Saudi Prince and the owner of a company that has bred a number of Kentucky Derby winners I believe.

I guess this would go under support for my statement about hatred of the west and killing of the infidels. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] If someone doesn't put up the title, I can try to find it. The author was interviewed on Fox.

Re: State sponsored suicide bombings by children
 

Sounds good, I'm glad you basically agree with me on everything now.

Re: State sponsored suicide bombings by children
 

You are FUN-NY.

I do not agree with the statement below, and I await a shred of evidence for this piece pure fiction:

"If you want to know what their [refers to "most arab governments"] true attitude is, look at what the government controlled schools teach their kids. That it is their duty to hate the west, to hate Israel, and that it is an honroable purpose to kill all the infidels who trespass on their land. "

Re: State sponsored suicide bombings by children
 

LOL. I thought I'd try the closure non-sequitor. I learned that from the folks I've been arguing with and it makes as much sense, just interpret whatever they say any way you want.

You've responded with PA propaganda about suicide bombings against Israelis and the assertion that some Arab countries fund terrorists, neither of which I mentioned or queried.

I don't care what you queried, the only statement I wanted you to sign off on was that Arab states support the killing of Jews, and you've agreed to that now. I bargained high to get what I really wanted, it's a negotiating technique. You put your statement offer on the table in your last post, and now I'm accepting it.

Glad you've agreed with all the points I've made in *this* thread. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

Re: State sponsored suicide bombings by children
 

Ah I see. Making stuff up, which you were so righteously indignant about earlier, is now "bargaining high". I said that some Middle Eastern (not Arab, as you keep saying; one of the main two is Iran which as I've pinted out is not an Arab country) states support Palestinian terrorist organisations. So you may infer from that they seem to support the killing of Israelis under current citcumstances, which I condemn. You could have got me to agree with that without all this disingenuous crap; you just had to ask. Jews as a general term is wrong; as I posted elsewhere, Iran generally respects the rights of its small Jewish community, and certainly doesn't support the killing of them.

"Glad you've agreed with all the points I've made in *this* thread."

Something of an exaggeration. Meanwhile, I too am ready to accept your admission that you have no evidence for your untrue statement in the other thread.

BBC, TIME Magazine, ADL articles and quotes.
 

OK for you guys who won't even read some sources because you think they are too biased, here are some sources to which you shouldn't have that objection. Good, factual articles...enjoy.


BBC

School Trains Suicide Bombers

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/1446003.stm


BBC

Schooling for Holy Warriors-Pakistan

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/369484.stm


ADL

PA TV Mosque Sermon Praises Suicide Attacks and Calls For End Of Israel, U.S. and U.K., quoted text

http://www.adl.org/israel/mosque_sermon2.asp


TIME magazine

Saudi Schools, Imams and U.S. Relations (4 pages)

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,331980-1,00.html

sorry, you will have to cut and paste the URL for the TIME article directly into the browser window since I am having trouble with the URL feature and my edit time may be about to expire

Re: State sponsored suicide bombings by children
 

Something of an exaggeration. Meanwhile, I too am ready to accept your admission that you have no evidence for your untrue statement in the other thread.

Oh it's completely true, and I have seen the evidence. It's just that it was on TV, and now it's in my memory, and I can't post that on the web. So I know it's true, and you will have to remain ignorant until I get around to finding something on the web for you, if ever. Actually, you already saved me the trouble and admitted that you know such evidence exists when you said that surely I can find 1 article describing the hate propaganda that the Arab snots learn in school. So, since you are convinced that this evidence exists, I have no need to actually find it, and you essentially agree that children in Arab state sponsored schools are learning to be suicide bombers and kill Jews, just like I said all along.

Re: BBC, TIME Magazine, ADL articles and quotes.
 

From the last link:

Parents say they are fed up with the Wahhabist school curriculum, which rears students on a diet of intolerance. A typical passage from a sixth-grade history textbook vows that "Arabs and Muslims will succeed, God willing, in beating the Jews and their allies."

Bingo. I had some others like this earlier, but I lost them, and for some reason I couldn't call them back from the search engine again.

Re: BBC, TIME Magazine, ADL articles and quotes.
 

I hope this isn't aimed at me as I read all of Bruce's links.

"School Trains Suicide Bombers

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/1446003.stm "

This is an Islamic Jihad training camp, not an Arab governement-run school.

"BBC

Schooling for Holy Warriors-Pakistan

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/369484.stm "

THis is an "Islamic school", not a
state-school - the article makes the distinction celar. FUrthermore, it is in Pakistan, not an Arab country. Finally, the implication is these boys are being trained to fight in Kashmir, which is a territorial dispute with India, and not to kill Western infidels.

"ADL

PA TV Mosque Sermon Praises Suicide Attacks and Calls For End Of Israel, U.S. and U.K., quoted text

http://www.adl.org/israel/mosque_sermon2.asp "

Bruce has already posted about this, and I've not disputed it. It has nothing to do with governement-run Arab schools.



"TIME magazine

Saudi Schools, Imams and U.S. Relations (4 pages)

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,331980-
1,00.html "

What are you referring to in this?

Re: BBC, TIME Magazine, ADL articles and quotes.
 

nicky, I'm just providing general related articles showing widespread Arab sentiment and indoctrination to hatred of the West and jihadism.

I'm not providing these links specifically and only regarding the PA and school texts, although there are shocking quotes from PA textbooks I can provide as well, but the sources aren't BBC, for instance.

I think Bruce's argument is more general than a narrow focus on PA school indoctrination, though this thread he started may be more specific. I'll dig up the SPECIFIC TEXBOOK QUOTES shortly.

Re: BBC, TIME Magazine, ADL articles and quotes.
 

Are these governement-run schools? It does not mention anything about killing tresspassing infidels. As I said previously, there are definitely schools teaching abhorrent things in Saudi Arabia, and I was surprised you couldn't find any references to them. Saudi Arabia is not representative of the Arab world as a whole.

Re: BBC, TIME Magazine, ADL articles and quotes.
 

"nicky, I'm just providing general related articles showing widespread Arab sentiment and indoctrination to hatred of the West and jihadism. "

What you've demonstrated, is militant Palestinan hate for Israel, Pakistani (non-Arab) indoctrination for the Kashmir conflict, and the existence of fundamentalist religious schools in Saudi Arabia. Thank you for the links.

Actual Palestinian School Textbook Quotes
 

Here are dozens of shocking PA school textbook quotes, including the exact title of the textbook and page numbers where the quotes were found. Anyone looking for evidence of racist, jihadist, inciteful indoctrination of Palestinian youth need look no further.

http://www.edume.org/reports/1/report.htm

Re: BBC, TIME Magazine, ADL articles and quotes.
 

Here's a link to Arafat.

Arafat approval of suicide bombers

Here's the tie-in to Arafat:

"It is not known if Yasser Arafat has approved the use of children and young women posing as mothers.

But he has already endorsed the two single women who blew themselves up.

Both came from Ramallah, where Arafat has his headquarters and is at the core of Islamic extremism."

Also, see my quote from the link M posted. So now you have several examples of schools teaching destruction of Israel, and Arafat approval of suicide bombers. Have fun, and don't give me some crap about these all being religous schools, that's really weak. The state controls them, and religion and the state are one. So you go and believe what you want to believe. Ultimately you will anyway. I'm done.

Re: BBC, TIME Magazine, ADL articles and quotes.
 

Actually my remark was more "aimed" at Cyrus;-)

Re: State sponsored suicide bombings by children
 

As your links prove, you are incapable of honest comment. You imply in your header that there are "state sponsored suicide bombing by children," but in your post water it down to "Arab schools" that allegedly "encourage children to become suicide bombers" -- no more "state sponsorship" of bombings "by children" -- then provide a link to a reported "camp" run by tiny Palestinian Islamic Jihad ("much smaller, less organized group" than Hamas according to the Council on Foreign Relations) which (1) has no appearance of state-sponsorship; and (2) is about as representative of "Arab schools" as Bob Jones University is of "American Universities" (as in "American Univerisities prohibit interracial dating").

Further, you and your sources fail to distinguish suicide attacks against civilian or military targets and imply "martydom" is a synonym for "terrorism" or even "suicide bombing." As has been pointed out repeatedly, a "martyr" is anyone killed for the cause of Palestinian nationalism, including innocent victims.

It's the same kind of slight-of-hand the equates any statement about destroying the "Jewish state" or the "Zionist entity," or even failing to acknowledge their "legitimacy," as a threat to commit genocide. I suppose similar claims were made by some white South Africans whenever the ANC threatened to "abolish" or "eradicate" the South African state or even "apartheid."

Re: BBC, TIME Magazine, ADL articles and quotes.
 

What has Aarfat endorsiing suicide bombers got to do with Arabic state schools teaching children to kill Western infidels?

"now you have several examples of schools teaching destruction of Israel"

Your remark was about the West and "infidels", not Israel. It is hardly a secret that large sections of the Arab word are anti-Israel; a good deal of arabic states are officially at war with it. I have one example of a Saudi textbook promoting the "defeat" of the Israel and its allies (along with an example of a training camp for Kashmir guerillas, an example of an Islamic Jihad indoctrination camp, and an example of an anti-Israel rant by a Palestinian imam). This does not remotely justify your sweeping statement about most Arabic government run-schools encouraging children to kill "tresspassing infidels."

Revelatory
 

You post up links to articles by respectable sources, eg BBC, that report how the fanatical wing of the Arab terrorists operates and how set is their mindset. Which has never been disputed by anyone here, as far as I recall.

Yet you and folks like CALL have the temerity to dispute the veracity of Israeli sources that are provided by Alger -- only because they quote stats and data about the Palestinians' terrible plight and the Zionists' atrocious acts.

I see.

One category of sources is good and the other category is bad. How obvious.

Re: BBC, TIME Magazine, ADL articles and quotes.
 

"Your remark was about the West and "infidels", not Israel. It is hardly a secret that large sections of the Arab word are anti-Israel; a good deal of arabic states are officially at war with it."

And they readily make the distinction that the No. 1 Israel ally isn't really one of their enemies? C'mon [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

Re: Actual Palestinian School Textbook Quotes
 

Most of the Arab population in what is now Israel was forcibly displaced by Israel simply because they are Arabs, and you find that complaints about this are "racist?" Then if you were foced to leave your country because you were white, and you complained about this and denied its legitimacy, and insisted that things ought to return to the way they were, I guess that would make you a racist?

I suppose you think the more expected response would be: "Honey, some Zionists are at the door, claiming that we have been "squatting" for a thousand years. Can you find the deed to the farm so I can sign it over to them?"

This is the sort of topsy turvy logic one has to embrace to acknowledge Zionist complaints about Palestinian wrath.

Re: State sponsored suicide bombings by children
 

As your links prove, you are incapable of honest comment. You imply in your header that there are "state sponsored suicide bombing by children," but in your post water it down to "Arab schools" that allegedly "encourage children to become suicide bombers" -- no more "state sponsorship" of bombings "by children"

The header is perfectly accurate. If the schools teach children to become suicide bombers, and the schools have a link to the state, then the state is sponsoring suicide bombings. This the title for the thread which is a work in progress, and M has found many better examples of this. I've also shown that PA sponsors propaganda for this purpose, and that other Arab states financially support the terror groups that engage in suicide bombing. So state sponsored suicide bombings by children is what the post and the thread is about, just like the title proclaims.

Further, you and your sources fail to distinguish suicide attacks against civilian or military targets and imply "martydom" is a synonym for "terrorism" or even "suicide bombing."

Sorry, I was speaking in a dialect of civilized.

I suppose similar claims were made by some white South Africans whenever the ANC threatened to "abolish" or "eradicate" the South African state or even "apartheid."

Try to stay on topic for once, I dare you.

Hey, I see you used Goedel's theorem in your footer, cool. You should really quote Goedel though, not me. This is one of the more interesting sounding statements of the proof. How are doing with the proof?

Re: State sponsored suicide bombings by children
 

I also noticed you used the first line of the proof. An admission of ignorance? Or the Zionist aggressors prevented you from reading the rest?