Button Bongo Bonanza at the Bike
 

I was at the Bicycle Casino the other night and I think I got the short end of the stick on a decision by the floorman.

I was in the 8 seat, and although I like the ends, this particular table had a raised floor receptacle (for the shuffle machine) right at my feet, and it was bothering me. I planned to move to any other other end seat, the 2, 3 or 7, as soon as it became available. It’s a seniority process on seat changes at the Bike, so who ever has been at the table longer can request an available seat if more than one person wants to move. In practice, it’s often just the first person to make the request takes the seat – which I intended to do the moment an end seat became available. Then one did, the 7 seat, to my immediate right.

Here’s what happened: Full nine-handed game with the button at the 4 seat. We finish the hand, and the button slides over to the 5 seat. The 7 seat gets up and leaves after playing UTG and I say I’ll take his seat and the big blind, and I move. Then the 6 seat, who just took his big blind, says he wants my 8 seat, and takes it. The 5 seat’s phone rings, so he leaves his button to talk on the phone and is out for the hand.

Half the table is talking at the same time, including myself, as if we’re experts, telling the dealer what to do, where to put the button, etc. Over comes the floorman and makes his determination on what needs to happen (I'll leave his name out, because I think he blew it).

What do you think? Where does the button go? Who’s in, who’s out, who’s posting, who’s waiting?

I think I got a bad decision, but I’ll let the wisdom of the board figure it out. Results to follow, including how I got revenge on the next hand. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Sparks

Re: Button Bongo Bonanza at the Bike
 

If I am reading all of this correctly the new 8 seat gets the button and owes a small blind on the button. The 9 and 1 seats both owe big blinds. You may post both blinds with the small being dead in the center or you may wait for the big blind. You were probably thinking you should get the button with the 8 seat being the small blind, but you have not taken a blind yet so you cannot receive the button. It has been a few years since I worked at the Bike, so perhaps Rick can clarify and quote exact rules.

Randy Refeld

Re: Button Bongo Bonanza at the Bike
 

There are two sets of rules at the Bike regarding button placement and posting of blinds. Top section (including NL) uses the standard rule where you are responsible for posting all blinds every round and offers advanced options such as "buy the button" and posting a single blind as a new player between the small blind and button. Note that the I personally campaigned for the advanced options along with a reduction of the penalty for moving away from the blind.

Bottom section (8/16 and below) carries over a policy that was used when there was only one blind (which was a policy I successfully lobbied to change as "one blind" is the type of action killing blind structure favored by nits). When the Bike had one blind and the player on the button got up the button slid forward and the player that was supposed to take the single blind now gets the button and "fades" the blind that round. This was deemed "player friendly" (not by me - I maintain it is a violation of proper poker procedure). That said, the fact was with one blind few noticed or complained since there was always a single blind in front of the button and the person that escaped the blind probably thought he was benefiting from some sort of mistake.

When I convinced management to go back to two blinds in bottom section it was mandated that the policy of allowing a player to "fade a blind" continue. In other words, if the player on the button or small blind gets up, the blinds or button move forward and now two players get to fade either the big blind or small blind. Are you following? Naturally I campaigned against this, albeit unsuccessfully.

As an aside, the worst problem with this "blind fading" policy was that when someone had an "out" button and was about to post the big blind and re-enter, if the small blind or button got up the big blind would slide past him and he would either have to wait another round or post the big blind and dead small blind two hands later. Still following?

When buy the button and the other posting options were implemented in top section, I decided to wait and make sure the bugs were worked out before campaigning for their introduction into bottom section. Several months passed, BTB and the other posting options were well-received and the bugs were worked out (the one minor exception/problem is beyond the scope of this post). I then campaigned to have one set of rules apply to both top and bottom section, including BTB and the improved posting options. Unfortunately, I was unsuccessful.

So I guess my question is "What limit were you playing?"

Regards,

Rick

Re: Button Bongo Bonanza at the Bike
 

[ QUOTE ]
If I am reading all of this correctly the new 8 seat gets the button and owes a small blind on the button. The 9 and 1 seats both owe big blinds. You may post both blinds with the small being dead in the center or you may wait for the big blind. You were probably thinking you should get the button with the 8 seat being the small blind, but you have not taken a blind yet so you cannot receive the button. It has been a few years since I worked at the Bike, so perhaps Rick can clarify and quote exact rules.

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Randy,

You might enjoy my other post, and yes, I was venting a bit (in my defense I was dealing with a rain leak into the wall behind a giant bookcase [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]).

Assuming this is top section, why can't Sparks in seat seven get the button and post a big blind on the button (note that next hand he posts a small blind with the button to his left). The player who is now in seat eight moved at an inopportune time, yet by doing so he missed a blind and would now post another big blind in seat eight. Seat nine also should post a big blind since there are always at least two blinds posted in front of the button (except when buying the button - the dead BTB blind serves as one of the blinds).

Next hand seat one posts the big blind (there is no seat ten in LA), seat nine posts a small blind, seat eight posts a small blind on the button, and seat seven (Sparks) posts a small blind behind the button.

The following hand (i.e, third hand in the sequence) everything returns to normal (small and big posted in front of the button with the button in seat nine) as all players have met their blind obligations. The fact that seat eight (who moved at the wrong time from seat six) seems to post an extra blind often occurs when a player moves while he is in the middle of the blinds (instead of dealing off).

Regards,

Rick

Re: Button Bongo Bonanza at the Bike
 

[ QUOTE ]
Assuming this is top section, why can't Sparks in seat seven get the button and post a big blind on the button (note that next hand he posts a small blind with the button to his left). The player who is now in seat eight moved at an inopportune time, yet by doing so he missed a blind and would now post another big blind in seat eight

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Rick,
You are right. I have less experience with the forward moving button. Yes, I did enjoy your post about fading blinds, I had forgotten about the single blind games (those were being played for a couple of months before I left). If seat 7 is given the big blind onthe button the next hand he can take the small blind as a trailing blind. On this first hand is there a real reason seat 8 cannot take the small blind having just paid the big blind and receive the button the next hand having paid both blinds. I am in the moniroty view, but I am not a an of the forward moving button not only becasue of situations like this but becasue I think allowing someone to pay a blind in the best position is a lto more of an injustice than allowing someone the button twice in a row when the second time they woudl have been in the cutoff seat which is a good position to be in anyway. In NL an PL games I am in favor of moving the button to the next active player and having the 2 players after the button post blinds and not worry about missed blinds etc.

Randy Refeld

Re: Button Bongo Bonanza at the Bike
 

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So I guess my question is "What limit were you playing?"

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20-40 HE. I'm confused by the responses thus far, though. How is the button getting past the 6 seat? It is the 5 seat who's on the phone -- the 6 seat is still in the game when I move to the 7 seat.

Sparks

Re: Button Bongo Bonanza at the Bike
 

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On this first hand is there a real reason seat 8 cannot take the small blind having just paid the big blind and receive the button the next hand having paid both blinds.

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I don't believe that is what I wrote (I'm now late and in a rush so don't have time to comb through my earlier post). Seat eight moved at a bad time (from seat six) so he incurs extra blind obligations (unless he wants to wait a round). He posts the big blind directly in front of the button (that's the hand with three big blinds) and next hand he posts the small blind on the button. He doesn't fade any blinds, in fact he pays three blinds three successive hands.

[ QUOTE ]
I am in the minority view, but I am not a an of the forward moving button not only because of situations like this but because I think allowing someone to pay a blind in the best position is a lto more of an injustice than allowing someone the button twice in a row when the second time they woudl have been in the cutoff seat which is a good position to be in anyway.

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Good point but this is very rare. BTW, about ten years ago a part time writer for Card Player named Steve Fox (if memory serves) wrote an exhaustive analysis of the advantages/disadvantages of the forward moving button (commonly used in LA ring games) versus the dead button (used in tournaments and Las Vegas).

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In NL an PL games I am in favor of moving the button to the next active player and having the 2 players after the button post blinds and not worry about missed blinds etc.

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Your point here has merit, as PL/NL is more about position as opposed to blinds.

Regards,

Rick

Re: Button Bongo Bonanza at the Bike
 

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the 6 seat is still in the game when I move to the 7 seat.

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The 6 seat moved to your vacted 8 seat (right?). With the forward moving button the button must be given to an active player. After thinking about this a bit instead of going off the top of my head I woudl say this. You receive the button and owe a big blind this hand and will owe a small blind next hand. The player that moved from the 6 seat to the 8 seat has moved out of the small blind. He can either post another big blind or allow the the button to pass and post his dead small blind behind the button. There will be two big blinds in front of the button either by 8 and 9 or 9 and 1 depending on what seat 8 wants to do. Seat 8 also has the right to play off his button in seat 6 and THEN move in which 7 and 9 both owe big blinds. I am sorry I wasn't concise earlier; I get distracted by playing multi table poker. I hope this responce was clearer.

Randy Refeld

Re: Button Bongo Bonanza at the Bike
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't believe that is what I wrote (I'm now late and in a rush so don't have time to comb through my earlier post)

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That isn't what you wrote; I was thikning about it to myself. I was gogin to go back in note in my previous responce that I was mistaken but the time to edit had elapsed so it will have to be there for all to see.

Randy Refeld

Re: Button Bongo Bonanza at the Bike
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So I guess my question is "What limit were you playing?"

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20-40 HE. I'm confused by the responses thus far, though. How is the button getting past the 6 seat? It is the 5 seat who's on the phone -- the 6 seat is still in the game when I move to the 7 seat.

Sparks

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I read your post to mean that the six seat actually moved leaving the six seat empty. Now I realize that the six seat merely locked up the eight seat, which is empty for the hand in question. Heck, I'm late anyway but this is Bike business so let me try again [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

You haven't taken any blinds and slide to the empty seven seat. Seat five, who should have had the button leaves the table and doesn't say "deal me in" so he can't be dealt in. Seat six, who had the big blind last hand and has seat eight locked for a future move, posts the small blind on the button (which must slide forward to an occupied seat). You must post a big blind in seat seven if you want to play. Seat nine also posts a big blind (seat eight being empty) since there must be two blinds forward of the button unless someone is buying the button or posting inside.

Next hand you post a small blind on the button in seat seven. Presumably seat eight now gets up and deals off (a good time to move his chips to his new seat). Seat nine posts a small blind in front of the button and seat one posts the big blind. Next hand all returns to normal as seat nine gets the button and seat eight can be dealt in for free since he dealt off.

I need to see the landlord about my window leak and will check back in ten to fifteen minutes. Otherwise, any responses will have to wait until tonight [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Regards,

Rick

PS I don't like those receptacles either. This must have been table number seven.

Re: Button Bongo Bonanza at the Bike
 

Thanks Rick. I'd apologize for screwing up in my original post for my inaccurate description, but if I'd have gotten it right, we would have missed out on your explanation for the "locking up seat 8" scenario. Thanks for that.

Here's what actually happened, as I'm now recalling it. In my original description I said seat 6 moved to my seat, and he in fact did, right away, after having taken his BB in seat 6. But, I know there was someone on the button when I was offering to take the BB in the 7 seat. What I believe happened was that while we were discussing what to do, the guy on the phone sat back down in the 5 seat, and got the button, but slid over to the now empty 6 seat, to take the button there.

What should happen in this scenario? 6 seat with the button, me in the 7 seat, 8 seat having moved from the 6 seat after having taken his BB.

I was thinking I should be able to take the BB in the 7 seat, have the 8 seat wait one hand, and have the 9 seat also take a BB. Then next hand I would get the SB on the button and the 8 seat has the option of buying the button for 6 chips with 2 chips dead. The 9 seat then comes back in as the SB on the following hand with the 8 seat getting the button. In this scenario the 8 seat gets the penalty for leaving on his SB, rather than me.

The floorman made me wait and post the big and small blinds behind the button, by the way.

Sparks

Re: Button Bongo Bonanza at the Bike
 

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks Rick. I'd apologize for screwing up in my original post for my inaccurate description, but if I'd have gotten it right, we would have missed out on your explanation for the "locking up seat 8" scenario. Thanks for that.

Here's what actually happened, as I'm now recalling it. In my original description I said seat 6 moved to my seat, and he in fact did, right away, after having taken his BB in seat 6. But, I know there was someone on the button when I was offering to take the BB in the 7 seat. What I believe happened was that while we were discussing what to do, the guy on the phone sat back down in the 5 seat, and got the button, but slid over to the now empty 6 seat, to take the button there.

What should happen in this scenario? 6 seat with the button, me in the 7 seat, 8 seat having moved from the 6 seat after having taken his BB.

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When I worked as a floorman years ago I always divided decision making into two parts. After getting the table under control, part one was getting all the required facts and make sure that no one had anything of importance to add (without revealing my decision). This was often the hard part. Next came the decision, which was usually easy. Floormen that start to make a decision before getting all the facts straight are usually going to get into trouble [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

I've scrolled "what you wrote about what you think is right" down off my screen for now so I won't be influenced. It seems I'm starting with a new problem so this isn't quite "Groundhog Day".

Fact 1: The guy with the button in seat five slid the button over to seat 6 which was now empty. That's OK, when a player drags the button with him to an unoccupied seat (assuming no intervening seats are occupied) everything is copacetic.

Fact 2: You have yet to take a blind, and have now slid into the seven seat. Since the button is now in the six seat, ifyou want to play immediately you must post a big blind this hand (and post a small blind on the button next hand).

Fact 3 (I think - this story has changed about three times): The guy who was in seat six and had the BB the previous hand in fact did get up and immediately occupied the eight seat. This is a bad time to get up as now he is missing a blind, can't deal off, and must post the big blind again if he wants to get in right away (otherwise he can wait for the blinds to pass and post a live big and dead small or BTB when you in seat seven take the button).

Assuming seat eight wants to play, seat six has the button, you have a big blind in seat seven, and seat eight posts a big blind in seat eight. Next hand you post a small blind on the button in seat seven, seat eight posts a small blind, and seat nine posts the big blind. The next hand the blinds return to normal.

Note that seat eight pays an extra blind due to the fact he moved in the middle of his blinds rather than locking the seat he wanted, completing his blinds and button and dealing off.

Now I'll scroll down to your thoughts.

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You wrote: "I was thinking I should be able to take the BB in the 7 seat, have the 8 seat wait one hand, and have the 9 seat also take a BB."

Seat eight doesn't have to wait but he could. He still moved at a bad time and at some point will be paying a penalty (a dead blind or pay three blinds in three hands)

"Then next hand I would get the SB on the button and the 8 seat has the option of buying the button for 6 chips with 2 chips dead. The 9 seat then comes back in as the SB on the following hand with the 8 seat getting the button. In this scenario the 8 seat gets the penalty for leaving on his SB, rather than me.

This would work - you post a small blind on the button in any event. Of course seat 8 could pass on buying the button (it is an option) and either post behind with the small blind dead or wait one round or just take his big blind again as described above.

The floorman made me wait and post the big and small blinds behind the button, by the way."

That would be unnecessary and wrong if the facts are correct as last written (given they changed about three times I'm not betting my life [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]) PM me with the name of the floorman and I'll gently go over this and all the variations [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Regards,

Rick