River play with 2nd nut straight - reraise surprising fish raise?
 

This hand came up during a mutual swetting session with tyler_cracker. (Highly recommended, by the way; tyler had some great suggestions about my game; head over to the coaching thread or drop me a PM if you're interested in a session or two).

Anyway, both villans are lose-passive fish (roughly 50/4/.8). No specific reads unfortunately. I'm unsure of the correct line on the river here. At the time, I was startled by MP2's river raise, so I just called. (Thought he might be slowplaying a straight and was willing to push when the FD missed). Tyler rightly accused me of MUBS, and asked why I didn't three bet.

On further reflection, I think my call may have been OK. Assuming that MP1 will call one more bet but not two, a call gets us the same number of bets as a raise if we're ahead, but costs us fewer bets if we're behind. Thoughts?

Party Poker 0.50/1.00 Hold'em <font color="#0000FF">(10 handed)</font> link

Preflop: Hero is BB with 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (4.00 SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises</font>, SB folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.

Turn: (6.50 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.

River: (9.50 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises</font>, Hero . . .

[edited to fix spelling of post title]

Re: River play with 2nd nut straight - reraise surprising fish raise?
 

What do you think your behind too? A very badly played KJo? I 3-bet it fast.

Re: River play with 2nd nut straight - reraise surprising fish raise?
 

[ QUOTE ]
What do you think your behind too? A very badly played KJo? I 3-bet it fast.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fair enough. But what could MP2 be raising with? Two pair or big Q that was scared of the flush draw?

Re: River play with 2nd nut straight - reraise surprising fish raise?
 

Yeah, a river reraise seems pretty clear here.

Re: River play with 2nd nut straight - reraise surprising fish raise?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What do you think your behind too? A very badly played KJo? I 3-bet it fast.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fair enough. But what could MP2 be raising with? Two pair or big Q that was scared of the flush draw?

[/ QUOTE ]

He could have two pair, tripped up on the river, or AQs it really doesn't matter as long as it's not KJo. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

If it is KJo type "nh" and make some note's on the super slow played nuts.

Re: River play with 2nd nut straight - reraise surprising fish raise?
 

3-bet this all day long. He could just be cute.

Also, a little nitty clarification, .8 AF with 50 VP$IP isn't really passive.

Re: River play with 2nd nut straight - reraise surprising fish raise?
 

I'd RR, if he's got KJ he would have capped the Flop.

Re: River play with 2nd nut straight - reraise surprising fish raise?
 

I reraise this all day long, thinking MP2 flopped two pair and thinks he's slowplaying you. Why are we even assuming MP1 will fold to two? He may call top or even 2nd pair there. Seems to me he likes to hit "call." The way I would look at it is you can't profit more from the overcall than you can by raising, only the same amount (assuming that MP2 will at least call, which seems a safe assumption.) But raising can profit you more than that.

Re: River play with 2nd nut straight - reraise surprising fish raise?
 

Grunch:

I can't imagine not 3-betting this river. The only thing that can beat you is KJ. If he has that, he really butchered it.

If I had KJ in villian's position I would have capped the flop and raised the turn. He was last to act on the turn behind a bettor and a caller. The only rationale he could have for not raising, albeit poor, was that he was afraid of a heart.