2-4NL, will i ever establish myself at this limit??
 

ive played 1-2NL short handed for 13 months seriously with a lot of success. spent most of the winnings. due to a couple of decent tourney wins and winnings exceeding spending (just), my bankroll is about $4000-$4500.

just that last thursday i finally embarked on 2-4NL short handed, thinking if i drop below $4000 ill go back to the 1-2NL so i have 20 buy ins. I start off up $900. alls looking great. then after a few 2 hour sessions thats all gone due to constant dripping away of chips, and then today i try again and drop about $400-$450, again due to constant dripping (on one table; hands played 33, hands won 0).

i know this is normal, and that i can (and have) had downswings of up to 9 buyins, just that this is really getting annoying, when you sit there and just get dealt constant bad cards and never hit.

sorry for this bad post, just wanted to let off some stem.

Re: 2-4NL, will i ever establish myself at this limit??
 

So basically, you've played 1000 hands and now you're wondering why you're not making money? Starting off a couple buyins down is something I do almost everyday, that's why I try not to play with 10buyin BR

Re: 2-4NL, will i ever establish myself at this limit??
 

i know i shouldnt be thinking 'oh god this is bad', becuase its not at all. im just down 1 or 2 buy ins. its the fact i need to get the 'break' to get me established in 2-4nl, that good run of cards which you dont lose in the next day.
i have 20 buyins.
20 buyins at $200 and then whatever on top is my number of $400 buy ins. thats the way im playing at the moment, and so hopefully it gets to a point where im at 3 or 4 buy ins on top of the 20 buy ins at 200 and then never look back, but at the moment i know im good enough for 2-4nl, i just need that run of cards to keep me there.

Re: 2-4NL, will i ever establish myself at this limit??
 

Dont play nl400 unless you have 30 (or absolutely min. 20) buy-ins because I think you will think to much about the money worth if you do...

Re: 2-4NL, will i ever establish myself at this limit??
 

So... you started off with 10 buy ins, and haven't won in a tiny sample size. What is the question?

Re: 2-4NL, will i ever establish myself at this limit??
 

i cant see how people can not think of the money, unless you really have a lot.

after all, thats the number 1 reason why we are playing the game. yes it enjoyable, yes i think about it far more than what non-poker players would consider healthy, but would i still play it if i didnt make money, or had to pay to play? no i wouldnt. i still do (with mates for tiny stakes, but thats for the banter with friends, not as a serious card game). so i find it hard to not think about the money aspect. but that wont affect my game, i wont think 'should i call this all in becuase that is the same amount as a buying a lot of my mates a really nice dinner for us all', but after a few down sessions i will think, like i can now 'i had $1300ish more to my name than i did a few days ago', but hey, i then think 'but if i quit after my first few big downswings i would of made about $16/17K, so ive just got to accept it.

its just i find it irrating reading about players making a lot more, and i feel i do have the ability to play much higher, just i cant, due to my bankroll restrictions.

and yes, in an ideal world id like to play with 30 buy ins, but im happy with 20 buyins, and if i get more than that, use the excess as 'take a shot money' at the next level and hope to establish myself there.

Re: 2-4NL, will i ever establish myself at this limit??
 

john,
[censored] happens.
regards,
crosse

Re: 2-4NL, will i ever establish myself at this limit??
 

[ QUOTE ]
after all, thats the number 1 reason why we are playing the game.

[/ QUOTE ]

I strongly disagree with this statement.

Re: 2-4NL, will i ever establish myself at this limit??
 

lol, so you had a 2 buy in swing up.. then a 2 buyin swing down. Then a 1 buyin swing down.. and you're thinking the world is ending?

Re: 2-4NL, will i ever establish myself at this limit??
 

[ QUOTE ]
i cant see how people can not think of the money, unless you really have a lot.

after all, thats the number 1 reason why we are playing the game.

[/ QUOTE ]

I strongly agree with this statement.

Re: 2-4NL, will i ever establish myself at this limit??
 

I like to have a roll of $6000 just to play 1-2, to play 2-4 I would want $12000+. That way you don;t have to sorry about a few buy-in downswing.

You know that you don't have the proper roll here and are taking a shot - good luck if it comes off but 'knowing you are good enough for 2-4' (even if true) is irrelevant as even the best players can lose 10 buy-ins if the wrong cards hit..

Re: 2-4NL, will i ever establish myself at this limit??
 

thanks for the replies.

i agree firstly i would like to have a big enough bankroll to not get annoyed by losing a few buyins. its just a case of trying to play as high a limit as i can safely, and accept that it will annoy me at times, but it will never affect my play, which is a big factor when considering how high you play.

to the poster who said he strongly disagreed that winning money is the number 1 reason why we play this game, what is your number 1 reason?
enjoyment? skill?

id play chess if it were based on skill, something with no luck, and id play something a lot more enjoyable than poker - the number of times i spend at a poker table annoyed and irratated i only kid myself that its 'really enjoyable'. i love the game, but that doesnt mean its great to play. being addicted to smokes doesnt mean that persons really enjoys smoking; neccessities and luxieries, poker is more a neccessities than a luxury for me. and no, im not a gambling addict, im just addicted to a card game which in the long run makes me money.
anyways, that why for me winning comes above enjoyment and skill in consideration to poker. the dream of one day playing for monster stakes is not about playing with some great online players, it so i can win a shed load of cash and have a very comfortable life.

Re: 2-4NL, will i ever establish myself at this limit??
 

I play poker mostly to learn something new, I've been very good at several other games already, and this is my new "challenge". Then, as a side effect more or less, I can also make a shitload of money on this, which is totally awesome.

Re: 2-4NL, will i ever establish myself at this limit??
 

John,

I just started 2-4 NL. I have a feeling that I'm going to die a quick death over the next couple of nights. If I start a support group, will you join?

I've logged in a few hours of 2-4 already. I've also introduced myself to a variety of new games over the past few months. So, while this is no glowing resume, maybe my two cents will help:

1. 2-4 has plenty of ass players. Horrible, horrible players. Find them and use them. Don't just wait for cards or sulk at the bad ones. If you're blinds are weak, attack them. If the guy to your right is a hyper-aggressive maniac, punish him when you feel he's chasing draws. Remember to play poker.

2. 2-4 has several good players who are probably in front of their computers many hours a day, making in some nice cash.

I think your first job should be to scope out your players and see which ones are easy "targets." Which ones can you chop away at through continuation bets, check raises, standard stuff. If you want to build up one buy-in, there is nothing like a good couple of hours of winning small pot after small pot.

Then, you need to scope out which players are the good ones - people who will play back at you.

I think the best thing to do is to stick to your solid game. You may wind up getting smacked around by the good players, but if you keep the pots small against them and attack the fish, I think you can at least buy time at the 2-4 tables.

My bankroll is a little under yours and there is a good chance I'm heading back to the 1-2 tables in a few days. I think that you just need to consider your $ fodder for learning at this point. Do what you think is right when you play your hands with an open mind toward learning. Easier said than done.

Re: 2-4NL, will i ever establish myself at this limit??
 

Move up rationally.
Continue to play 1/2 as your primary game. Each week take a day and play 2/4 buy in short $100-$150 this will help you play more aggressively and make it more difficult to experience large losses.
Do not try to move up completely with 10 buy-ins if you use this method you can get comfortable with the game and not risk your bankroll.

Re: 2-4NL, will i ever establish myself at this limit??
 

You need a bigger bankroll.

I played my way up to $5K at 1/2 NL, playing very short-handed (HU or 3 handed, mostly), and dumped a majority of my roll in the space of a week losing coin-flips and LAG-type pushes. I dropped down to NL$100 and decided the next time I make it up to a $3,500 roll, I'd buy in half at NL200 HU or SH, so as to avoid bluffs and huge river decisions. I made an absolute killing and now have more than 30 buy ins at NL200, where I now buy in full.

It sucks to move down in limits. But I think theGrifter's advice is right on. You're posting about a tiny swing - you're clearly underbankrolled.

Re: 2-4NL, will i ever establish myself at this limit??
 

There's nothing wrong with using the money that exceeds 20 buyins for NL$200 to shoot at NL$400. It's your own conciderations about risk/reward that decide these things, not any one else's. If some people want to be close to certain they won't go broke, that's fine. If others (like me) can accept a higher risk, that's fine too. (And I'd say your bankroll management sounds pretty low risk if you're beating the game at a decent rate.)

Re: 2-4NL, will i ever establish myself at this limit??
 

[ QUOTE ]
Dont play nl400 unless you have 30 (or absolutely min. 20) buy-ins because I think you will think to much about the money worth if you do...

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree. I think it depends on the person. I think the 10 buy in rule is just a general guidline. Some people have no fear of money and play with just 2-3 buy ins. I'm not suggesting that for most but I dont think it is a must to have 30 buy ins for the 400NL game. For 2 reasons. 1 its not that tough and two you can always move back down. Also, The biggest factor is your value of money. If you feel uncomfortable putting your stack at risk your playing too high of limit regardless of how many buy ins you have.

Re: 2-4NL, will i ever establish myself at this limit??
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Dont play nl400 unless you have 30 (or absolutely min. 20) buy-ins because I think you will think to much about the money worth if you do...

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree. I think it depends on the person. I think the 10 buy in rule is just a general guidline. Some people have no fear of money and play with just 2-3 buy ins. I'm not suggesting that for most but I dont think it is a must to have 30 buy ins for the 400NL game. For 2 reasons. 1 its not that tough and two you can always move back down. Also, The biggest factor is your value of money. If you feel uncomfortable putting your stack at risk your playing too high of limit regardless of how many buy ins you have.

[/ QUOTE ]

as usual you're missing the point about bankroll... its about not having to reload, not having a replenishable bankroll.

15 is standard in lower level games less than 5/10.

ship it.

Re: 2-4NL, will i ever establish myself at this limit??
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Dont play nl400 unless you have 30 (or absolutely min. 20) buy-ins because I think you will think to much about the money worth if you do...

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree. I think it depends on the person. I think the 10 buy in rule is just a general guidline. Some people have no fear of money and play with just 2-3 buy ins. I'm not suggesting that for most but I dont think it is a must to have 30 buy ins for the 400NL game. For 2 reasons. 1 its not that tough and two you can always move back down. Also, The biggest factor is your value of money. If you feel uncomfortable putting your stack at risk your playing too high of limit regardless of how many buy ins you have.

[/ QUOTE ]

as usual you're missing the point about bankroll... its about not having to reload, not having a replenishable bankroll.

15 is standard in lower level games less than 5/10.

ship it.

[/ QUOTE ]

15 is fine but 30 buy ins? That is excessive in my mind. Again, that is why i say its all personal preference. Also, it depends on your motivation for playing. I play for fun and for the competition. I have other income coming in. I have no aspirations to turn pro although I do tracks wins and losses just for personal information and see what leaks I have and take losing seriously (again not for the money but because im competetive). For me, having 15 buy ins is not neccassary. If I lose I reload if I win I cash out. I do agree with you if you this is your only form of income. But like I said the bankroll thing in my oppinion is just a guidline and to each there own.....

Re: 2-4NL, will i ever establish myself at this limit??
 

I like this analysis, Grifter. I mean, look, right now 2-4 for you should be a learning experience. If you look around games - especially on Fulltilt, where I play, you are quite likely to find a game where 3 or even 4 players are in there with ~$200. Good luck, man.

Argun