QJs > Nuts > Action
 

Villain is decent for $200 NL. I would say he's a thinking player. Not very good, but better than average, most likely a winner in the game.

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PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (8 handed)

UTG ($253.50)
UTG+1 ($206)
Hero ($323.70)
MP2 ($200)
CO ($75)
Button ($191.25)
SB ($165.25)
BB ($200.80)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero calls $2, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Button calls $2, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: ($8) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets $6</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $22</font>, Button folds, SB folds, BB calls $16.

Turn: ($52) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets $30</font>, Hero ??
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What's the best way to play this? What do you put Villain on? How much do you think he's calling here? There are also many a card that come which may prohibit me from getting his whole stack in as well as scaring me into wanting his whole stack in. Thanks.

Re: QJs > Nuts > Action
 

I'm raising to $100 or pushing.

Re: QJs > Nuts > Action
 

i push and expect to be called by a set in 200nl, maybe even worse hands

Re: QJs > Nuts > Action
 

Yeah, this hand isn't gonna generate the discussion I thought it would. I figured I'd get his whole stack by pushing. Also had him on a set. He deliberated for like 15-20 seconds and called with 76c.

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PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (8 handed)

UTG ($253.50)
UTG+1 ($206)
Hero ($323.70)
MP2 ($200)
CO ($75)
Button ($191.25)
SB ($165.25)
BB ($200.80)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero calls $2, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Button calls $2, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: ($8) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets $6</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $22</font>, Button folds, SB folds, BB calls $16.

Turn: ($52) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets $30</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $299.7</font>, BB calls $146.80 (All-In).

River: ($528.50) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 1 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: $528.50

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
BB has 6c 7c (straight, ten high).
Hero has Qh Jh (straight, queen high).
Outcome: Hero wins $528.50. </font>
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Meh.

Re: QJs > Nuts > Action
 

I would've just called the turn. Villain's line from a thinking player looks like he's probing to see if you were raising a draw on the flop. If you raise both flop and turn, he can fold a ton of hands confidently knowing you weren't raising the flop to give yourself the option for a free river. Its also worth mentioning that he will almost never be on a straight or flush draw himself with this action and almost always has a made hand of some sort (straight, set, two pair).

If you call the turn, you have anough behind to sell a desperation bluff on the river (so long as the board doesn't pair) which he will have to call with a set or two pair if that card doesn't complete the flush or straight. In light of what he actually had, your line is better but I think call turn-&gt;push river gets more money in against his entire range. Of course, that's dependent on your table image to some degree but as I haven't played with you, I can't comment on that.

Re: QJs > Nuts > Action
 

What do you think of Villain's line here? It seems very hard to get away from 67......

Re: QJs > Nuts > Action
 

[ QUOTE ]
I would've just called the turn. [...]

[/ QUOTE ]
Isnt there a big problem with calling because so many cards will be actionkillers on the river IYO? + The little possibility that a scare card come and he comes in pushing and Hero get a tough decision?

Re: QJs > Nuts > Action
 

[ QUOTE ]
I would've just called the turn. Villain's line from a thinking player looks like he's probing to see if you were raising a draw on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's possible, but he should still have a hand right? If he's probing with a made hand, I want to raise and get his money into the pot before something kills my action. What happens when I call and sell the whole draw thing, but a spade comes? That's not really good for anybody.

Is he has 76, that's great as there is very little chance he'll get away from it. Especially when I play it super fast like I did. Not to mention, if he does have a made hand, my jam can also sell the whole semi-bluff thing, too.

If he has a set, I doubt he's getting away from that either. If he's probing with a draw, good, I still want to raise here, right? I'd rather go with the sure thing though, which is getting my money in now, as opposed to hoping river blanks so I can jam and sell a bluff.. all the while hoping his probing hand is that strong.


[ QUOTE ]
What do you think of Villain's line here? It seems very hard to get away from 67......

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, can't fault him for calling. I can easily have a set there and I'd play it the same way.

Re: QJs > Nuts > Action
 

From villain's perspective, he can get away from a ton of hands when you raise him both on the flop and turn. If you call the turn, you get more money in on the river against many of those hands that either block bet or check/call to snap off a bluff on the end. Whether or not cards kill your action is irrelevant if raising kills your action 100% of the time. Clearly, if villain is strong (as he was in this case or would be if he had a set), the money goes in pretty easily anyway. You can't stack him if he's not that strong no matter what you do but you can get a little more value out of your hand when he doesn't have a monster by calling the turn. The only time you lose is when villain would've played a big pot on the turn (with a set for example) but won't on a scary river.

Re: QJs > Nuts > Action
 

[ QUOTE ]
You can't stack him if he's not that strong no matter what you do but you can get a little more value out of your hand when he doesn't have a monster by calling the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

How? What are we putting him on that bets flop, turn, and river, that isn't going to be calling my raise?


[ QUOTE ]
The only time you lose is when villain would've played a big pot on the turn (with a set for example) but won't on a scary river.

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Or when I call and a spade hits and he bets again. Or when I call and a spade hits and he checks, thus killing my action. Or when I call and a Jack hits and kills my action.

Re: QJs > Nuts > Action
 

I think your line is fine, I really don't think you get more value out of just calling the turn, and you risk losing the pot.

Re: QJs > Nuts > Action
 

Yeah, those are basically my sentiments.

Re: QJs > Nuts > Action
 

The way you played the hand is not bad, I was just giving my side and what I would have done. In games I play, I make money off of hands like 98 and T8 by calling the turn and betting the river. They almost have to check/call the river to snap off a bluff from a busted draw. If I raise the turn, I lose those hands from all but the worst opponents because of the massive strength I've shown raising both the flop and turn.

What it boils down to for me is that villain clearly has a made hand and I clearly have a better made hand. If I raise both the flop and turn, I lose hands that are drawing almost dead to me (T9, T8, 98 for example) and only keep in the sets that have a decent chance to fill and the made straights. Those hands usually will put in a good amount of money on the river anyway so I don't need to put it in on the turn.

Just to make up an example to illustrate this precisely, lets say villain has 98. If I raise flop and turn, he probably folds to the turn raise. If I call the turn and the river is scary, he check/folds (no difference between raising the turn and calling in this case). If the river is a brick, he check/calls in case I'm bluffing a missed draw (which my hand now looks a lot like). If he chooses to put out a blocking bet and fold to a raise on a brick, I still get more money than if I'd raised the turn (the size of his blocking bet).

Re: QJs > Nuts > Action
 

Good discussion. Merry Christmas and thanks.

Re: QJs > Nuts > Action
 

what discussion? lol.

Re: QJs > Nuts > Action
 

Not raising the turn is horrible
Get it all in when you can
Too many scare cards (depending on what they have)- any cards that pair the board, 6,7, jack or queen what are you waiting to dodge half the deck for, not to mention he could have some sort of pair+ oesd type of hand get it all in now.

Re: QJs > Nuts > Action
 

[ QUOTE ]
what discussion? lol.

[/ QUOTE ]

The discussion between Ghaz and me on the pro's and con's of raising and calling the turn? I thought it was helpful, at least for me. Sorry if you didn't.