a line i like.......
 

.....against spazztards like this guy. he is 50/20/5 over 100 hands. thoughts?

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, UTG calls.

Flop: (7.33 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.66 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (6.66 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG calls.

Final Pot: 10.66 BB

Re: a line i like.......
 

i like it too. you allow him to bluff if that's what he's doing, and you eventually get your value out of A9, TT, Q8 if he's trying to value bet vs. your AK.

Re: a line i like.......
 

isn't a spazztard pretty likely to go off for multiple bets on the flop or turn with a draw or made hand(less than he'd put in on the river) and/or check/call the river with a hand with marginal showdown value? This guy raised UTG and donked the flop, he's not folding before the river. Let him put multiple bets in when he likes his hand

Re: a line i like.......
 

really depends if the guy is a maniac or not. like if he's going to 3-bet with bottom pair or worse i'm definitely going to go to war.

also don't underestimate how often they will continue bluffing trying to blow you off of your hand after you keep playing passively like this. like i said before, if he will go absolutely nuts with a bluff then we're missing out, but i'm assuming the guy will find a fold with something completely random.

edit: i missed the stats and just saw the "spazztard" part. we could very well be missing some bets vs. this guy.

Re: a line i like.......
 

[ QUOTE ]
isn't a spazztard pretty likely to go off for multiple bets on the flop or turn with a draw or made hand(less than he'd put in on the river) and/or check/call the river with a hand with marginal showdown value? This guy raised UTG and donked the flop, he's not folding before the river. Let him put multiple bets in when he likes his hand

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Yeah, I agree. A guy with a 5.00 postflop aggression could easily go crazy on that flop and maybe turn with any Queen, or worse pair.

Re: a line i like.......
 

I do, however, like this line against a guy that's over-aggro but not a complete idiot.

Re: a line i like.......
 

i would like it if he weren't so aggressive.
with an AF of 5, i'll bet you get 3-bet on the flop.
after that, you can call turn and raise river, getting another whole big bet in there.

Re: a line i like.......
 

I would personally have raised the turn...you dont know he is going to bet into you on the river and so could lose out on a bet if he decides to check/call or check/fold.

Re: a line i like.......
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
isn't a spazztard pretty likely to go off for multiple bets on the flop or turn with a draw or made hand(less than he'd put in on the river) and/or check/call the river with a hand with marginal showdown value? This guy raised UTG and donked the flop, he's not folding before the river. Let him put multiple bets in when he likes his hand

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Yeah, I agree. A guy with a 5.00 postflop aggression could easily go crazy on that flop and maybe turn with any Queen, or worse pair.

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his numbers are only over 100 hands, which imo means he is still aggro, but not necessarily a super-duper-lagtard monkey. just a spazztard.

Re: a line i like.......
 

haha i like it. very scientific.

Re: a line i like.......
 

he's 50/20/5 man, he's gonna put a lot of bets in with a worse hand. Do you know what a 5 AF for a 50 VPIP player means, even after 100 hands?? I think his range is heavy on hands he likes (meaning draws or hands he wants to showdown) and very light in hands he is folding to flop/turn aggression from you. When these guys actually have a showdownable hand like bottom pair, they often check/call the river, despite their crazy aggression

Re: a line i like.......
 

[ QUOTE ]
he's 50/20 man, he's gonna put a lot of bets in with a worse hand. I think his range is heavy on hands he likes (meaning draws or hands he wants to showdown) and very light in hands he is folding to flop/turn aggression for you. When these guys actually have a showdownable hand like bottom pair, they often check/call the river, despite their crazy aggression

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well, the only hand that i didn't want him holding (given my line) was JT. I wanted him to be keep betting a hand like 88. for whatver reason, the line just felt right in this spot.

Re: a line i like.......
 

i guarentee you he's not folding 88 ever. Might as well let him put in multipe bets with like QK or JT or whatever. If you wait till the river to raise he's probably not going to 3bet QK. If you raise it on the flop he usually will and you can call and raise the turn. THere's a good chance he'd 3bet turn w/ it too

Re: a line i like.......
 

[ QUOTE ]
i guarentee you he's not folding 88 ever. Might as well let him put in multipe bets with like QK or JT or whatever. If you wait till the river to raise he's probably not going to 3bet QK. If you raise it on the flop he usually will and you can call and raise the turn. THere's a good chance he'd 3bet turn w/ it too

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, get involved on the flop. Getting 3-bet by worse hands on the flop is sweet.

Krishan

Re: a line i like.......
 

I know in this situation I don't wait until the river, though I like popping him on the turn more than the flop.

Re: a line i like.......
 

[ QUOTE ]
I know in this situation I don't wait until the river, though I like popping him on the turn more than the flop.

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imo a turn pop means strength and will allow him to fold hands that he is crushed on. the river pop is so weird that it often gets a "wtf?" call. which is exactly what happened here.

Re: a line i like.......
 

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[ QUOTE ]
I know in this situation I don't wait until the river, though I like popping him on the turn more than the flop.

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imo a turn pop means strength and will allow him to fold hands that he is crushed on. the river pop is so weird that it often gets a "wtf?" call. which is exactly what happened here.

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I agree with the others, against a guy who is frequently going to war with top and mid pairs your missing entirely too much value by waiting for the river. There are spots and villians where this line is great but in this scenario I think your missing bets.

Re: a line i like.......
 

[ QUOTE ]
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I know in this situation I don't wait until the river, though I like popping him on the turn more than the flop.

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imo a turn pop means strength and will allow him to fold hands that he is crushed on. the river pop is so weird that it often gets a "wtf?" call. which is exactly what happened here.

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I agree with the others, against a guy who is frequently going to war with top and mid pairs your missing entirely too much value by waiting for the river. There are spots and villians where this line is great but in this scenario I think your missing bets.

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well, i think position is very important here. spazztards like this often go nuts with position, not without it.

Re: a line i like.......
 

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well, i think position is very important here. spazztards like this often go nuts with position, not without it

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I agree but I think bad turn calls are more frequent than river bluffs. Out of position we can bet 3bet, with it we can raise cap [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] That said there are types of players with these stats where I would me more prone to take this line than others.

Re: a line i like.......
 

I like it and use it quite often. The thing with a high aggression factor is that it comes from betting/raising a lot and not calling much. In other words players with high aggression factors may often fold to a turn raise.

That's why I like to keep him bluffing and pop him on the river.

Re: a line i like.......
 

Bob,

I actually take this line a fair amount, against such an opponent. And I adopt the same reasoning that you have expressed. But frankly, I do fear that it might be a leak.

One part of the equation I have yet to figure out seems pretty simple (for a math person). I want to get a sense of the chances that villain has a pair on the flop. I know that if his pockets are unpaired, he flops a pair about 1/3 the time. But if we add that number to the percentage of time that villain started with a pair, what is the total number?

I think the answer might affect my approach. If I thought that there was a 50% chance villain has a pair on the flop - one way or another - then it sure seems better to go to war on the flop, since he's not ever going to fold.

I realize this doesn't account for draws. But this analysis would help, at least, when the board isn't drawy. In your case, I suppose the board might be considered semi-drawy.

results
 

.....against spazztards like this guy. he is 50/20/5 over 100 hands. thoughts?

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, UTG calls.

Flop: (7.33 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.66 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (6.66 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG calls.

Final Pot: 10.66 BB

since i only had 100 hands on this guy i didn't want to assume he was a complete nut, but he clealry had some issues. i have no idea on any of the math, but there are only 2 queens left for him to go bonkers with. he doesnt have AA or KK. if he has JT, then i didn't charge him enough. anything else, and i want him to keep firing. he had 77 and MHIG.