$215: Interesting use of the min. bet
 

You don't see a min. bet into a large pot on the turn very often in a $215. I didn't know this player and it was the third hand or so of the SNG.

(Preflop note; I don't like to let players min-raise from early position when I'm in late position... so I was calling with any two here.)

Maybe this hand isn't interesting... but I had to think quite a bit while I was playing it, so I thought it might be worth posting. I'm sure that just about everybody would play every street differently than I did.


***** Hand History for Game 2708601656 *****
15/30 Tourney Texas Hold'em Game Table (NL) (Tournament 15722432) - Wed Sep 14 02:51:57 EDT 2005
Table Table 10899 (Real Money) -- Seat 3 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: Ritschi (700)
Seat 2: this2shalpas (990)
Seat 3: shannon210 (975)
Seat 4: clcmillion (1310)
Seat 5: Twostepping (1000)
Seat 6: freeway99 (1040)
Seat 7: HoytCorkins5 (1000)
Seat 8: madpete (1000)
Seat 9: CrazyyGramps (1000)
Seat 10: KleemannCLK (985)
clcmillion posts small blind (10)
Twostepping posts big blind (15)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to this2shalpas [ Qd, Js ]
freeway99 raises (30) to 30
HoytCorkins5 folds.
madpete folds.
CrazyyGramps folds.
KleemannCLK calls (30)
Ritschi folds.
this2shalpas calls (30)
shannon210 folds.
clcmillion calls (20)
Twostepping folds.
** Dealing Flop ** : [ 2h, 3c, Jh ]
clcmillion checks.
freeway99 bets (135)
KleemannCLK folds.
this2shalpas calls (135)
clcmillion folds.
** Dealing Turn ** : [ 4d ]
freeway99 bets (15)
this2shalpas calls (15)
** Dealing River ** : [ 8s ]
freeway99 bets (250)
this2shalpas calls (250)


Irieguy

Re: $215: Interesting use of the min. bet
 

Assuming he was setting you up for a c/r, or strong river move, what would you suspect is the difference between the min-bet and a check on the turn?

Is CALLING a min-bet on your part somehow a weaker "tell" vs. CHECKING behind?

Put another way...

Is NOT raising a min-bet weaker than NOT leading behind a check?


...or is this some psychological "blocking move", having feared your cold-call on the flop some? But min?!


Question for you: Was your call on the river swaded at all by this bizzare bet? Would you have called if he continued his pot'ish assertion on the turn?

Re: $215: Interesting use of the min. bet
 

(I play at the $22s and $11s)

Thats a really weird turn bet, and it gets pretty suspicous when he turns up the juice on the river.

I'd like to know why you called the river, was it to gain information for future SnGs, or did you believe you had the best hand...because I think your behind.

Re: $215: Interesting use of the min. bet
 

I'd really like to hear what you think is so interesting about this. Is turn min-bet blocking? I doubt that could be very successful at the 215s, although at the 11s I think that may actually work. Is turn min-bet an attempt to encourage a raise? That sounds like it may be reasonable on some boards, but the flop now has a heart draw and a straight draw out, so unless he has Ah5h, I don't like it here, and even then, another shot of 135 looks pretty weak.

My diagnosis is that it's likely he A) is very unfamiliar with poker and his bet amounts on the other two streets just happened to be normal or B) meant to bet a different amount.

Re: $215: Interesting use of the min. bet
 

Did he hit the straight on the turn, bet small hoping to look like a blocking bet so that you'd come over the top? I could also see this as an attempted blocking bet with a missed A,K or A,Q, but if so, why the min bet pre-flop. The only other option I could see is pocket 8s and he hit the set on the river.....Really none of the bet sizes make a whole lot of sense to me, but I'm basically a betting retard......to much push/fold moreean for me.

Re: $215: Interesting use of the min. bet
 

Interesting hand. I only play the $55's, so I'm unfamiliar with the context. But anyways, I like preflop and flop, and I think that I would most of the time play them like you did, no matter what the buy-in. On the turn however, in the games I've played at, I usually raise whenever someone minibets. Especially when it's heads up. It's just almost always a sign of weakness, and raising takes the pot. You had a hand here though, so calling might be better.

On the river I first thought that this looks like a pretty tough call, which I guess it is, but then I started thinking: do you think that villain is considering your just calling the turn minibet as a sign of weakness, and thus is very likely to be bluffing?

I wanna ask.. Did you call the turn hoping for a cheap showdown or to induce a bluff [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: $215: Interesting use of the min. bet
 

I think the turn bet is to turn players into guessers.

Looking at the replies so far, it might not be too bad [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Lori

Re: $215: Interesting use of the min. bet
 

This seems insane for a $215.

I'm thinking maybe a missed flush draw he's trying to scare you out of on the river?

If you guys think I'm wrong, please indulge me in why. I'm curious.

Re: $215: Interesting use of the min. bet
 

[ QUOTE ]
...or B) meant to bet a different amount.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm starting to like this one. Meant to slow down a tad, bet t150 - forgot the "0"...you didn't raise - led hard on the river [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: $215: Interesting use of the min. bet
 

Heh, I think I do play every street differently but the whole sequence is so strange that I find it hard to say you did anything wrong. Still, if I had to pick one spot to do something differently then I would raise the flop.

Re: $215: Interesting use of the min. bet
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think the turn bet is to turn players into guessers.

Looking at the replies so far, it might not be too bad [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Lori

[/ QUOTE ]

good point lori, we should rename this play/situation the "Irieguy Dilemma". [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: $215: Interesting use of the min. bet
 

I couldn't come up with a reasonable hand for him here. I think I like the way you played it. If you're not going to raise the turn, the river call is a no brainer. I think raising the turn is ok folding to a reraise, but, I think I like this line better. I wouldn't be surprised to see him turn over TT or TJ here.

Re: $215: Interesting use of the min. bet
 

[ QUOTE ]


I wanna ask.. Did you call the turn hoping for a cheap showdown or to induce a bluff [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

I called the turn to induce a bluff. That's a big part of my game, and something that I worked on a lot with Unarmed. It's also something that few players do, and something that I don't think I've ever seen a post about.

That's why this hand was interesting to me. I don't remember ever calling on the turn to induce a bluff, because it's normally a sign of strength. But calling a min bet shows extreme weakness and I was ready to call any amount on the river unless an ace hit.

Irieguy

Re: $215: Interesting use of the min. bet
 

I actually like the turn min raise, because if nothing else it will make you second guess what is going on, but the huge river bet looks like he is just paying you off.

Re: $215: Interesting use of the min. bet
 

[ QUOTE ]
I called the turn to induce a bluff. That's a big part of my game, and something that I worked on a lot with Unarmed. It's also something that few players do, and something that I don't think I've ever seen a post about.


[/ QUOTE ]

Well.. Maybe not at the STT forum at least. Calling to induce bluffs is something I've begun to understand after playing some 0,5/1 6max No-Limit and reading the PL/NL forums. Check/calling just seems to be almost a tabu, thanks to all those Books I guess. And on this forum perhaps thanks to the prevailing, and of course very correct, push/fold strategy.

[ QUOTE ]
That's why this hand was interesting to me. I don't remember ever calling on the turn to induce a bluff, because it's normally a sign of strength. But calling a min bet shows extreme weakness and I was ready to call any amount on the river unless an ace hit.

[/ QUOTE ]

VNH, I think.

Re: $215: Interesting use of the min. bet
 

I agree this hand is really fantastically interesting. If I couldn't see the board, I'd say that the betting felt like an ambiguous overpair, but with a queen high flop, that leaves only KK and AA. Another possibility is a decent ace like AJ...

Unfortunately, I think you have to call the river because you're getting better than 2:1, but I just really wouldn't know where I'm at. Top pair is either far ahead or far behind.

I'd be curious to see the result. That would explain the cause for the min bet...either looking for you to raise or because he is weak...I personally am 50/50 on it, so that's why I'm calling it down.

For the future, I think the correct move here is to raise the flop, and fold if he plays back.

Re: $215: Interesting use of the min. bet
 

I don't understand any part of the play of this Hand [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]
1.) You have told me "ad nauseum" to stay away from hands like Q-Joff in the early going.
2.) I don't understand your late-position call on the flop; "pump it -or- dump it"
3.) Your call of the min-bet on the turn must be "I've played this really bad so far; why change now"
4.) I understand the call on the Riv; if he had a monster he would push
[img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

I put him on A-Js

Re: $215: Interesting use of the min. bet
 

I'm going off the board and guessing you won the hand.
Perhaps Villain playing AQ or AK, strangely I may add?

Re: $215: Interesting use of the min. bet
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't understand any part of the play of this Hand [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]
1.) You have told me "ad nauseum" to stay away from hands like Q-Joff in the early going.
2.) I don't understand your late-position call on the flop; "pump it -or- dump it"
3.) Your call of the min-bet on the turn must be "I've played this really bad so far; why change now"
4.) I understand the call on the Riv; if he had a monster he would push
[img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

I put him on A-Js

[/ QUOTE ]

Most of SFB's "funny" posts are not funny. This serious post, however, is quite amusing. Ah, the delicious irony.

A-J???? This is the best you could do. What numbnuts at a $215 would bet $15 into a $400 pot with TPTK and a flush draw on board?

-Z

Re: $215: Interesting use of the min. bet
 

The more I think about this hand, the more I think he has 55-TT with either 55, 88, or TT being the most likely.

Re: $215: Interesting use of the min. bet
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't understand any part of the play of this Hand [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]
1.) You have told me "ad nauseum" to stay away from hands like Q-Joff in the early going.
2.) I don't understand your late-position call on the flop; "pump it -or- dump it"
3.) Your call of the min-bet on the turn must be "I've played this really bad so far; why change now"
4.) I understand the call on the Riv; if he had a monster he would push
[img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

I put him on A-Js

[/ QUOTE ]

Most of SFB's "funny" posts are not funny. This serious post, however, is quite amusing. Ah, the delicious irony.

A-J???? This is the best you could do. What numbnuts at a $215 would bet $15 into a $400 pot with TPTK and a flush draw on board?

-Z

[/ QUOTE ]

Me & Gig

PS: You don't even know where the $215's are [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]
PPS: You got beat @ *STTF-HUC* by a 14-year old & a sweet young man who looks at you "Quizzically" whenever he has the greek-nutz [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

Re: $215: Interesting use of the min. bet
 

[ QUOTE ]
I called the turn to induce a bluff. That's a big part of my game, and something that I worked on a lot with Unarmed. It's also something that few players do, and something that I don't think I've ever seen a post about.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's a massive part of my early game. I'm sure its just not something discussed here, but its constantly discussed in cash game forums/settings. How else does one gain much value from marginal holdings? Making people fold worse hands? Boo.

Also, given how confusing the opp's line is, I think I would've played it just like you did. I'm sitting here now looking at it and I can't figure out what the hell he's thinking... it just seems so inconsistent.

I might even call if I was pretty sure my hand was not good (though I think yours is good here, but I'm unfamiliar with how some of the $215ers play) just to see what he has and maybe figure out what was going through his head. This game is no fun if I can't figure out what he's thinking.

Re: $215: Interesting use of the min. bet
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't understand any part of the play of this Hand [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]
1.) You have told me "ad nauseum" to stay away from hands like Q-Joff in the early going.

[/ QUOTE ]

You can't play Q-J early in a SNG if you will put this opponent on A-J with that action on the turn. Nor can you play it if you will pay-off A-Q when you both make a queen. But if you don't make either of those mistakes, and you are capable of inducing a bluff from an ace that misses, almost any hand is profitable from late position against a min-raiser preflop.

[ QUOTE ]

2.) I don't understand your late-position call on the flop; "pump it -or- dump it"

[/ QUOTE ]

A poker hand, like the universe, will unfold as it should. I am not afraid of the turn. Most opponents are. Let's see it.
[ QUOTE ]


3.) Your call of the min-bet on the turn must be "I've played this really bad so far; why change now"

[/ QUOTE ]

Precisely my thinking.

[ QUOTE ]

4.) I understand the call on the Riv; if he had a monster he would push

[/ QUOTE ]

You can't understand the call on the river if you don't understand the call on the turn.

[ QUOTE ]

I put him on A-Js

[/ QUOTE ]

That's the only two-card combination that it would be essentialy impossible for him to have.

Irieguy

Re: $215: Interesting use of the min. bet
 

I remember in a post a long time ago Greg Raymer said to treat a min bet like a check, what would you do if he checked the turn?

Re: $215: Interesting use of the min. bet
 

[ QUOTE ]
That's the only two-card combination that it would be essentialy impossible for him to have.

[/ QUOTE ]

My thinking exactly [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: $215: Interesting use of the min. bet
 

15 on the turn is neither a block, nor value, so I would think most likely he is trying to induce a bluff. Then, he says, "wow, a calling station" and value bets the river. Second most likely is that his warped mind thought it was a block.

edit: I'm not taking any possible posting bias into account.

Re: $215: Interesting use of the min. bet
 

Smells like a small suited Ace played poorly early

Re: $215: Interesting use of the min. bet
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
That's the only two-card combination that it would be essentialy impossible for him to have.

[/ QUOTE ]

My thinking exactly [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

What was the "Heiny-count" prior to the start of this hand?

Re: $215: Interesting use of the min. bet
 

I don't know about others here, but I fairly often bet 15 by accident when I'm multi-tabling. It especially happens when I want to automatically hit "bet the pot" and then by the time it comes to me I ended up mini-betting instead. It's of course entirely possible there's a real reason, but that actually seems more likely to me than anything else. Anyway, I'd probably have treated it as a check, and I might have raised something into it to see how he responds. But if you think the mini-bet was intentional, than inducing a bluff is an interesting line. Honestly, it's hard for me to put villian on anything here.

Re: $215: Interesting use of the min. bet
 

[ QUOTE ]
I remember in a post a long time ago Greg Raymer said to treat a min bet like a check, what would you do if he checked the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

Easy check. Against most opponents the value you gain by showing weakness and inducing river bluffs exceeds the risk you take by giving a free card. Also, I'm not real interested in opening up the betting on the turn as it allows villain to C/R with hands I currently have beat.

Re: $215: Interesting use of the min. bet
 

I have on occasion slid the bar and have accidently slide back to a min bet. I am thinking that it may be a real possibility but then again he did min raise preflop. OT I have learned from those accidents that against aggressive opponenets min bets on turn will often lead to reraise all ins making it a possible trap move against the right opponent.

Re: $215: Interesting use of the min. bet
 

[ QUOTE ]
Also, I'm not real interested in opening up the betting on the turn as it allows villain to C/R with hands I currently have beat.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why do you care whether his alleged bluff occurs on the turn or the river?

Re: $215: Interesting use of the min. bet
 

[ QUOTE ]
I remember in a post a long time ago Greg Raymer said to treat a min bet like a check, what would you do if he checked the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I remember Greg's post saying that... and I would say that it's true insofar as a min-bet is usually closer to a check than a real bet.

But in this particular case it seemed to me as though the villain was min-betting specifically to find out whether or not he would be able to bluff me off the hand on the river.

If he had checked, I would have checked behind, of course.

Irieguy

Re: $215: Interesting use of the min. bet
 

[ QUOTE ]
That's the only two-card combination that it would be essentialy impossible for him to have.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't understand why he can't have AJ? Can someone please throw me a bone and explain why this is impossible? He would have raised bigger pre-flop? Not bet as much on the flop? Never played the hand in the first place?

Help...

Re: $215: Interesting use of the min. bet
 

[ QUOTE ]

I don't understand why he can't have AJ? Can someone please throw me a bone and explain why this is impossible? He would have raised bigger pre-flop? Not bet as much on the flop? Never played the hand in the first place?

Help...

[/ QUOTE ]

If you have top-pair, top-kicker on the turn, and there is a flush draw on board... how much would you bet into a 400 chip pot? If you were to play that situation 100 times, how often would you bet 15? If you were to ask 100 players how they would play it, how many would say "I would min-bet, of course?"

He could have an underpair, a set, a flush draw, an ace, or any two cards other than AJ... but he can't have AJ.

Irieguy

Re: $215: Interesting use of the min. bet
 

[ QUOTE ]
how many would say "I would min-bet, of course?"


[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly one.

Your pops, [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img].

Yugoslav
Who thinks this thread is pretty dope....
PS What if he bets out 1/3 pot on the turn?

Re: $215: Interesting use of the min. bet
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Also, I'm not real interested in opening up the betting on the turn as it allows villain to C/R with hands I currently have beat.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why do you care whether his alleged bluff occurs on the turn or the river?

[/ QUOTE ]

It's harder to call on the turn as you will have shown strength by betting when you could have checked.

Re: $215: Interesting use of the min. bet
 

[ QUOTE ]
He could have an underpair, a set, a flush draw, an ace, or any two cards other than AJ... but he can't have AJ.


[/ QUOTE ]

Damn... it always seems obvious once someone spells it out for me. [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img] Thanks for the help!

Re: $215: Interesting use of the min. bet
 

I like the way you played the turn and river, and for all the reasons that have already been stated.

I would've folded preflop and on the flop without reads, but I'm not saying that I'm right.

What do you do if he bets 3/4 pot on the turn?

Re: $215: Interesting use of the min. bet
 

hey irieguy

what do you think most villains who minbet the turn would do if you min-raised the turn?

do you see them checking the river most of the time or leading the river with a pot-sized bet?

thanks
fuji