The 3rd Shot at 10/20 is a charm... but not
 

I have been mostly a 5/10 6max player, and building my bankroll, I have naturally taken shots at 10/20 6max. I did so with 300 BBs, which is not very assuring for short handed games of high variance, but that's why they call it a "shot".

Anyways, took my 3rd shot at this beast tonight, played only 1000 hands, and dropped 1000 BBs. Not too bad, but now I'm 0/3 at 10/20 6max shots and after a (small) sample of 5,500 hands, I'm down $7,367.85 and again my confidence in my abilities are very low. It's just frustrating when it seems everytime you try to move up, you just can't.

Numbers seem pretty standard. 25 VPIP, 17 PFR, 2 AF, ASB 32, Fold BB to stl 60. I've posted some hands and most of the time I've played them how many of you posters would play. I use PAHUD, read and understand and agree with a lot of HHs posted on this forum.

Do any other posters have similiar stories when they tried taking shots? If so, how many times did you have to move back down before you could successfully start showing profit and stay at 10/20 6max?

Is moving down the best idea after dropping 100 BBs? It just seems like all the work at building the BR is lost in one night and I have to go down to 5/10 and grind some more before trying to move up. But playing underbankrolled would lead even more to my demise.

Thanks for reading this. Hopefully it wasn't too whiny. I'm more just depressed right now and wondering if this type of thing is normal for the transition from 5/10 to 10/20. All input and advice is greatly appreciated.

Re: The 3rd Shot at 10/20 is a charm... but not
 

1000 bbs ouch [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]
10/20 is a lot tougher then 5/10 I think at this point you should build a bigger bankroll before taking your next shot, and of course do all the necessary precautions to help from making mistakes (i.e. play one table, spend as much time as possible for each decision, datamine it a [censored] load ahead of time so you have better stats on the players, take your shot on like a friday night etc)

Other then that, it'll come through eventually just gotta keep your head up. good luck with it. You're not alone.

Re: The 3rd Shot at 10/20 is a charm... but not
 

Well said MattC.

I transitioned to 10/20 recently and played around 14k hands at break even WR. Though I only play 2tables, the variance at this limit is mind blowing. I too am wondering if is worth the stress. But for sure I feel like my game is improving a lot.

I think it was Ulysses who said to play pretty tight from blinds and over all at a new limit for the first 10K or so hands until you post a 2BB WR. May be you might want to tighten up your game a little bit?
Oh yeah, you're not alone.
GL.

Re: The 3rd Shot at 10/20 is a charm... but not
 

I'm at the same place as you, i feel very comfort with 5/10 and am still taking shots at 10/20. I have run very well at both limits, but the fluctrations at 10/20 still scares me. I will recomend that you don't take this 'permanent shots' for me it has worked great to tabelselect bettween the limits and play some 10/20 tabels when i feel sharp but also mix it with 5/10. 10/20 is a tricky limit but you might find some really great tables their if you just wait, often i datamine 10/20 with 10tabels before i sit down, look at thoes tabels and pic some of them if i feel comfort with the players otherwise i just shut them down and play my 5/10 game. Hang in and take the shot slowly you have nothing to loose with waiting. stay at 5/10 and play your regular hands as you used to at 5/10 and have it like a 'stabel income' and just play a cuple of hundred 10/20 when you feel like.

GL.

Re: The 3rd Shot at 10/20 is a charm... but not
 

Rinse and Repeat.

Re: The 3rd Shot at 10/20 is a charm... but not
 

How many hands at 5/10? I think this is a more reasonable way to discuss when you should move up. It doesn't matter how many shots you take if you aren't ready yet. (And I'm not saying you aren't)

Krishan

Re: The 3rd Shot at 10/20 is a charm... but not
 

what is your screename. I will check my database and see if I have any hands on you I can comment on.

Re: The 3rd Shot at 10/20 is a charm... but not
 

[ QUOTE ]
Anyways, took my 3rd shot at this beast tonight, played only 1000 hands, and dropped 1000 BBs.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow that was a scary read. You clarified below with 100BBs. Yeah those swings happen in SHed and dropping back down might be an OK idea but I'd give it another shot/day and see how things pan out.

Re: The 3rd Shot at 10/20 is a charm... but not
 

def not alone, i too play 5/10 6max usually and occasionally jump to the 10/20 6max. i have decent numbers playing the 5/10 but when i get to the 10/20 the variance and swings are just too great. sure you can set aside 300 BB for the game, but when you drop 50-100 BB in a game you get rattled and your off your game, that is going to happen.
just keep on stabbing at it once you build a good enough BR and your day will come...

Re: The 3rd Shot at 10/20 is a charm... but not
 

I believe that it takes a rare person to loose even 1/4 that much in a shot and still be playing their best.

I only ever take 100bb "shots" and move back down. The smaller shots are easier to handle when you blow the money.

Re: The 3rd Shot at 10/20 is a charm... but not
 

10/20 seems to be the biggest/hardest jump in terms of game difficulty that i have seen. I think the best way to do it is to concerntrate more on seat selection. At 5/10 if there are 2 bad players at a table its fine, but at 10/20 if there is a 30/20 guy (they are everywhere at this limit it seems) to their left iso raising them you will have a hard time getting into pots (notto mention a tricky aggressive player attacking your blinds is tough). Make sure you have a good seat at the table, and only play 2 tables at first. Once you get comfortable at a limit you will wonder why it was so hard all the other times.
Also obey Tolbiny's 2nd rule of poker
Always run good at hight limits.

Re: The 3rd Shot at 10/20 is a charm... but not
 

[ QUOTE ]

I believe that it takes a rare person to loose even 1/4 that much in a shot and still be playing their best.

I only ever take 100bb "shots" and move back down. The smaller shots are easier to handle when you blow the money.

[/ QUOTE ]


I think every time he takes a shot and backs down, his confidence degrades that much more. Granted 100BB drop is rough and non-standard, but it does happen.

The thing that is bothersome is that he's lost $7,367.85 overall at 10/20 in 0/3 attempts per his first post. So nix 2K from this last session and he's down 5,400ish in the other two, which is more than 100BB per loss average on each shot.

I think we need more info on his 5/10 experiences and number of hands played. Regardless of playing his best or not, the obvious is that he is getting crushed at 10/20 6m, so chances are his play is not near optimal despite whatever his 5/10 results are. Granted you can drop 300-400BB at 6m over a stretch, but 300-400BB in 3 shots seems extremely excessive.

It may be possible he isn't ready for the 10/20 6m or is just running ungodly bad. If he's posting a solid winrate at 5/10 6m over many hands then I might be convinced he's just running bad. But if he's a marginal winner, it could very well be that he's not ready for the 10/20 yet.

Re: The 3rd Shot at 10/20 is a charm... but not
 

My screen name is clavinerboy. Any input on hands would be greatly appreciated [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: The 3rd Shot at 10/20 is a charm... but not
 

krishan,

I have 21,000 at 5/10 6max, and also 3000 hands at 1/2 6max and 7000 at 3/6 6max.

My numbers all around are all generally the same as well.

Re: The 3rd Shot at 10/20 is a charm... but not
 

Thanks for all the replies guys, it really helps to know that you guys care and are willing to help me become a better player.

I'll be on a ski trip for the next few days, so I probably won't post any replies, but I look forward to reading all teh posts when I come back and going back at the grind!

Re: The 3rd Shot at 10/20 is a charm... but not
 

[ QUOTE ]
krishan,

I have 21,000 at 5/10 6max, and also 3000 hands at 1/2 6max and 7000 at 3/6 6max.

My numbers all around are all generally the same as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think this is a sufficient number of hands to be able to assess your winrate or ability at these games. Do you think the move up may have been premature? Not saying it was, just wondering if you think you need some more time to ascertain your true winrate and ability over a longer period and number of hands. Do you have an extended amount of live game experience?

Re: The 3rd Shot at 10/20 is a charm... but not
 

[ QUOTE ]
krishan,

I have 21,000 at 5/10 6max, and also 3000 hands at 1/2 6max and 7000 at 3/6 6max.

My numbers all around are all generally the same as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well I played about 170,000 hands of 5/10 before moving up to 10/20. And I still think there were more things I could learn at 5/10 even when I left. So one piece of advice would be to play another 150,000 hands and then you'll be ready. Now I don't actually recommend this. But you should know that not everyone moves up quickly. One benifit is I had a 2K+ bet roll when I moved up.

Secondly, you probably don't have quite as intimate an understanding of variance as more experienced players. 20K hands is basically a microscopic fleck of sand on a microscope in the sahara (I'm exaggerating for effect here). I don't think it's possible to know if you are even a winner at 5/10 much less if you are ready to move to 10/20.

Krishan

Re: The 3rd Shot at 10/20 is a charm... but not
 

Yes, I agree that I have not played very many hands. I also do not have any live experience, except the occasional home games with friends, but all they want to play is No Limit.

Re: The 3rd Shot at 10/20 is a charm... but not
 

Again, you are right that I have played a very small number of hands. I should probably play more before moving up, as there are probably quite a few things I could/should master before moving up, and to be sure I am a winner.

Re: The 3rd Shot at 10/20 is a charm... but not
 

[ QUOTE ]
Again, you are right that I have played a very small number of hands. I should probably play more before moving up, as there are probably quite a few things I could/should master before moving up, and to be sure I am a winner.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would agree, this is clear now given all the info. Spend some time at 5/10 and keep in mind there is no rush, poker isn't going anywhere.

Re: The 3rd Shot at 10/20 is a charm... but not
 

How many hands do y'all recommend playing at 5/10 before moving up to 10/20? Is 500 bets a recommended BR or 1000 for the 10 game?

Re: The 3rd Shot at 10/20 is a charm... but not
 

With your stats I don't think it's possible to lose more than 100-150 BB without noticably terrible cards at the 10/20, **unless** you're either not making player reads or not trusting them. I would play the 5/10 on 2 tables without the PA HUD, and when you're beating that for more than 2BB/100, for several thousand hands, you're ready to move up.