88 your play?
 

just sat down at table, no reads
okay... a few questions.
1.) do most of you raise preflop here?
2.) raise the flop or just call?
3.) turn and river are played fine right?

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is Button with 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, CO calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, CO calls.

Flop: (13.50 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, MP2 folds, CO folds, Hero calls, UTG folds, UTG+1 folds.

Turn: (7.75 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP1 calls.

River: (11.75 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
MP1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP1 calls.

Final Pot: 13.75 BB

Re: 88 your play?
 

1. pf looks good.
2. raise the flop

everything else looks good.

Re: 88 your play?
 

I just call preflop since you cannot isolate anymore and I raise the flop, the board is semi coordinated and the pot is big enough to start knocking out people.

Re: 88 your play?
 

preflop is goot. value, get a free card on flop, increase pot to hit your set and odds to draw.

flop: gotta raise. yes you have a set, but letting a straight/flush draw play cheap is bad. plus you could get MAD action from a lower set or a goofy played AA or something.

Re: 88 your play?
 

There are two players to act after you on the flop. Your raise will protect against gutshots, which is what you want to protect against. Flush draws will probably coldcall anyway, so you'll just get more value here. The pot is large, but it is not ridiculous. I think raising the flop is fine.

Re: 88 your play?
 

limp preflop and raise on the flop

Re: 88 your play?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I just call preflop since you cannot isolate anymore and I raise the flop, the board is semi coordinated and the pot is big enough to start knocking out people.

[/ QUOTE ]

You aren't isolating preflop, you are raising 5 limpers with a PP. When you flop a set, you get anyone with 1 pair chasing while drawing dead.


This is one of those hands where I'd bet everytime it was my turn. If another spade hits the river, then I will slow down.

Re: 88 your play?
 

1) I value-pfr here. Why is everyone limping? I think the pot bloating factor, the possible free flop card, our position, and the slim loss of value in a raise even when playing solely for set outs makes this a raise.
2) Raise the flop for value and be less than astounded when several people cold-call with the worst of it.
3) Yeah, fine IMO.

Re: 88 your play?
 

[ QUOTE ]
You aren't isolating preflop, you are raising 5 limpers with a PP. When you flop a set, you get anyone with 1 pair chasing while drawing dead.


[/ QUOTE ]
it has been probably discussed before many times, but I don't see any reason to raise since your equity is only 8% of the current pot (maybe a little bit more since once in a blue moon your pair of 8s will hold up). You need 12 limpers for the raise to be correct.

Re: 88 your play?
 

[ QUOTE ]
your equity is only 8% of the current pot

[/ QUOTE ]

Preflop isn't about equity.

Re: 88 your play?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
your equity is only 8% of the current pot

[/ QUOTE ]

Preflop isn't about equity.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, let's think about it. If raising 5 limpers is profitable, that means I want to put as many bets as I can as long as all 5 limpers call, right? So, I put 16% of the total money that is going in and will have to fold around 90% of the time on the flop. Please, explain why raise with 88 is profitable here.

Re: 88 your play?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
your equity is only 8% of the current pot

[/ QUOTE ]

Preflop isn't about equity.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, let's think about it. If raising 5 limpers is profitable, that means I want to put as many bets as I can as long as all 5 limpers call, right? So, I put 16% of the total money that is going in and will have to fold around 90% of the time on the flop. Please, explain why raise with 88 is profitable here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Here's two good scenarios:

5 limpers, you raise, 8 to the flop for 16BB


flop

A 8 5 rainbow. AK-AT are basically drawing dead, and you will get mucho action

hands like 89 are drawing almost dead, yet they will probably put in 2-4 bets in on the flop hoping to turn trips.


Second:

5 limpers, you raise 88, 7 to the flop for 14sb

Flop:

A T 4

all check to you, you check

turn 8

bet, call, call, you raise.... and so on


and lastly,

5 limpers, you raise 8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7 to the flop for 14 sb

flop

A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Bet, call, call, call, you call getting about 18:1

Turn

8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

bet, call, you raise.

Re: 88 your play?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
your equity is only 8% of the current pot

[/ QUOTE ]

Preflop isn't about equity.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, let's think about it. If raising 5 limpers is profitable, that means I want to put as many bets as I can as long as all 5 limpers call, right? So, I put 16% of the total money that is going in and will have to fold around 90% of the time on the flop. Please, explain why raise with 88 is profitable here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Assuming 5 limpers call and nobody re-raises, you are getting 11.5:2 on your raise, when the required pot odds are somewhere around 15:2. When you flop your set, you have 3 streets and 5 players to pay you off, making it more likely that you will recover 1.75BB postflop on average. As mentioned before, you will also sometimes get a 4-card flop.

Re: 88 your play?
 

8%....no.

Re: 88 your play?
 

Hip, while I don't disagree with your point, I don't think your examples clearly demonstrate the idea. While every situation you've described is great, you haven't accounted for their frequencies.

Re: 88 your play?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
your equity is only 8% of the current pot

[/ QUOTE ]

Preflop isn't about equity.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, let's think about it. If raising 5 limpers is profitable, that means I want to put as many bets as I can as long as all 5 limpers call, right? So, I put 16% of the total money that is going in and will have to fold around 90% of the time on the flop. Please, explain why raise with 88 is profitable here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sometimes you get a free shot at a turn card to make a set in a 7bb pot.

Re: 88 your play?
 

Raise preflop
Raise flop...I like your line only If im trapping dead money, which in this case there is none.
Lead or raise the rest of the way
slow down if you get 3 bet on this river...still a auto-call down though at .50/1.

Re: 88 your play?
 

[ QUOTE ]
When you flop your set, you have 3 streets and 5 players to pay you off,

[/ QUOTE ]

How is this related to preflop raise?

Re: 88 your play?
 

For the raise to be profitable:

% of additional total money I put in preflop when I raise &lt; % of the time I expect win.

period.

Re: 88 your play?
 

These are all just basicly examples of why to play it, not why raising is better. If you have 5 limpers in front of you they're probably loose enough to pay you off with very marginal holdings in any size pot if you do hit your set. Inflating the pot so the people will chase when they're drawing dead is pointless if the people will chase when they're drawing dead regardless.

Re: 88 your play?
 

i like trying to see cheap flops with medium pairs (77, 88, 99) cause if the flop comes paint and aces its easier to release your hand and not make loose calls especially at low limits where people who limp wont fold to a raise just try to hit your set cheap and release it if you dont

Re: 88 your play?
 

That's not exactly true. There are some other factors to consider that have been pointed out. But basically you're expecting to win 8% of the time and you'll win way more than that. You don't automatically lose when you don't flop an 8.

Re: 88 your play?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
When you flop your set, you have 3 streets and 5 players to pay you off,

[/ QUOTE ]

How is this related to preflop raise?

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Because the bloated pot will be more likely to induce callers when you hit.

Yes, the move is slightly -EV strictly from an equity point of view.

We probably lose something like 0.2 SB or so in EV (these are quick estimates and not at all accurate, but they get the point across), versus calling. But in doing so we get:
1) The possbility of a free flop card. That's a free 5% shot at say 16SBs = 0.05*16 = 0.8SB. I'll reiterate this is a total simplification and doesn't take into account several factors that both increase and decrease this number. But even here, if we get the free card 1 time in 4 (seems likely), we've made our investment back already.
2) The chance to get more bets in when there is a bigger pot. For every player's flop fold in a 6SB pot that becomes a call in a 12SB pot gets us probably about 0.8SB. If we induce turn calls, it's even more profitable.

And this completely neglects the nontrivial number of times that the flop comes ragged undercards and we can play aggressively with our overpair, and our preflop raise did make us money directly.

So for a very small investment preflop, a number of good returns can occur postflop that make us money in the long run.

Re: 88 your play?
 

If raising 88 on the button is correct - how about 77? What about 22? You still get the same action when you flop a set, you still might get a look at a free turn card. I don't see raising with 88 as being that good of a play unless you like to chase a two outer.

Re: 88 your play?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
When you flop your set, you have 3 streets and 5 players to pay you off,

[/ QUOTE ]

How is this related to preflop raise?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because the bloated pot will be more likely to induce callers when you hit.

Yes, the move is slightly -EV strictly from an equity point of view.

We probably lose something like 0.2 SB or so in EV (these are quick estimates and not at all accurate, but they get the point across), versus calling. But in doing so we get:
1) The possbility of a free flop card. That's a free 5% shot at say 16SBs = 0.05*16 = 0.8SB. I'll reiterate this is a total simplification and doesn't take into account several factors that both increase and decrease this number. But even here, if we get the free card 1 time in 4 (seems likely), we've made our investment back already.
2) The chance to get more bets in when there is a bigger pot. For every player's flop fold in a 6SB pot that becomes a call in a 12SB pot gets us probably about 0.8SB. If we induce turn calls, it's even more profitable.

And this completely neglects the nontrivial number of times that the flop comes ragged undercards and we can play aggressively with our overpair, and our preflop raise did make us money directly.

So for a very small investment preflop, a number of good returns can occur postflop that make us money in the long run.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is a good explanation and I definitely agree with most of the points here, but one:

[ QUOTE ]
And this completely neglects the nontrivial number of times that the flop comes ragged undercards and we can play aggressively with our overpair, and our preflop raise did make us money directly.

[/ QUOTE ]

By bloating the pot preflop you WILL give odds for overs to chaise and you won't be able to protect your overpair no matter how hard you try.

Anyway, good discussion.

Re: 88 your play?
 

[ QUOTE ]
By bloating the pot preflop you WILL give odds for overs to chaise and you won't be able to protect your overpair no matter how hard you try.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a good point, but minor compared to the other EV considerations IMO.

Firstly, this assumes that we never get a chance to face some or all of the field with two bets in the larger pot, so there is a chance to protect here.

Secondly, one of the reasons that this is especially good with the middling pockets is that no one necessarily even has 2 overs. There's still plenty of single overcard hands etc. that can incorrectly call many flops.

Finally, even if there are some hands out there that can draw correctly, we almost always still have an equity edge against them; it would be nice to protect, but we can still profit off of the bets going in on the flop.

Re: 88 your play?
 

Easy raise preflop, and yes you should be raising small pocket pairs, 44 etc in this situation, your implied odds are huge, and dont forget u dont need to flop a set to win, you can also make a straight.

Re: 88 your play?
 

[ QUOTE ]
If raising 88 on the button is correct - how about 77? What about 22? You still get the same action when you flop a set, you still might get a look at a free turn card. I don't see raising with 88 as being that good of a play unless you like to chase a two outer.

[/ QUOTE ]
lol