Gutshot Wheel Draw on flop - enough to warrant call or standard fold?
 

Is this an easy fold on the flop or should I be chasing?

Here are some reasons for folding:
- I've got four outs to the gutshot draw, one of which (4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]) might make someone a flush.
- I am also susceptibile to redraws
- There are several players yet to act behind me.
- Even if I hit the draw and my hand holds up, I may end up having to split the pot if someone else has an Ace.

2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, Hero calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (7 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(7 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+1 checks, UTG+2 checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, MP2 folds, Hero??

Re: Gutshot Wheel Draw on flop - enough to warrant call or standard fold?
 

this looks like a good spot to fold. You have a small pot odds deficit that could easily get magnified by a raise behind you. Also, so could make your draw and lose to a higher straight or a flush or split with another ace. Also, with this many players in the pot, you can't really be too happy about an ace coming off because someone could easily make a straight when you make top pair or you could end up outkicked.
Fold.

Re: Gutshot Wheel Draw on flop - enough to warrant call or standard fold?
 

The pot's not exactly small, and you do have two overcards to go with your wheel draw. I'd consider raising, actually.

There are some potential problems, though:

(1) With seven people seeing the flop, the chances are better than they would be at a tighter table that someone has a flush draw. And if the table is also passive, the flop checks don't tell us that UTG+1, for instance, does not have Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].

(2) With so many seeing the flop, the chances that a 6 are out there cannot be disregarded at all. There's a good chance there's another ace in someone else's hand, but having someone else in the pot with a 6 has its problems too.

(3) Even if you raise, it's probably going to be hard to get rid of an ace, at a table this loose. And if a hand like A9 is out there and you can't get rid of it, that hurts your equity a lot.

Edit: (4) Oh, yeah, and like Snowball points out, you won't be able to get rid of a 4, and if one of those is out there, catching an ace would be worthless to you.

Hmm. I'm not really sure what's best.

Re: Gutshot Wheel Draw on flop - enough to warrant call or standard fold?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Is this an easy fold on the flop or should I be chasing?

Here are some reasons for folding:
- I've got four outs to the gutshot draw, one of which (4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]) might make someone a flush.
- I am also susceptibile to redraws
- There are several players yet to act behind me.
- Even if I hit the draw and my hand holds up, I may end up having to split the pot if someone else has an Ace.

2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, Hero calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (7 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(7 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+1 checks, UTG+2 checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, MP2 folds, Hero??

[/ QUOTE ]

1 - Raise preflop. Limping is sub-optimal.
2 - Raise the flop. No one likes their hand so far; MP1 may be betting with any pair or even a 4 so you may be ahead; raising puts a lot of pressure on another A so you may save 1/2 the pot; you will very likely get a free turn if you want one.

Re: Gutshot Wheel Draw on flop - enough to warrant call or standard fold?
 

I think this is a fairly safe fold.

The gutshot draw leaves you with the sucker end of a straight, which when ahead will be split quite often. Catching an ace leaves you possibly behind a straight, Ah and 8h possibly leave you behind a flush.

Our position relative to the aggressor sucks and there may be a c/r behind us.

The pot is big, but the whole situation kind of sucks. There isn't really anything we can catch here that we're that happy with.

Re: Gutshot Wheel Draw on flop - enough to warrant call or standard fold?
 

[ QUOTE ]

1 - Raise preflop. Limping is sub-optimal.
2 - Raise the flop. No one likes their hand so far; MP1 may be betting with any pair or even a 4 so you may be ahead; raising puts a lot of pressure on another A so you may save 1/2 the pot; you will very likely get a free turn if you want one.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like this best. Raise all those limpers preflop with your strong multiway hand and raise this flop with what may be the best hand. If you're not best now, overcards+gutshot constitute enough reason to continue.

Re: Gutshot Wheel Draw on flop - enough to warrant call or standard fold?
 

Easy fold. You could call this if you were using both cards for the straight, but a 4 makes your wheel straight a second best straight to anyone with a 6. You also may be drawing to half or even a third of the pot. I wouldn't even call this if I was getting the 10.5-1 that you'd need to hit a gutshot.

Re: Gutshot Wheel Draw on flop - enough to warrant call or standard fold?
 

I would have raised preflop, which would have made the pot huge, and would have made a call or c/r more correct on the flop. As played, I think you have to fold the flop. As noted by other posters, your outs are very dirty. If you continue, raising is probably your best option.

Re: Gutshot Wheel Draw on flop - enough to warrant call or standard fold?
 

I'd call with one spade on the flop. You are drawing to a split pot. If you hit an 8 you can easily get outdrawn and A outs should be very heavily discounted. I don't think you have much going here. I fold.

Re: Gutshot Wheel Draw on flop - enough to warrant call or standard fo
 

Thanks for all the replies. I'm glad there wasn't a consensus - at least it makes me feel that the decision wasn't so straightforward!

I ended up folding in this spot. I think this is a raise-or-fold situation. I figured that with seven people having seen this flop, someone caught a piece of it. WIth all my tainted outs, folding seemed cleaner.

I hadn't really considerd the preflop raise here.

I figured that with four people already in the pot, it would be at least 5-6 way even if I raised. With this many people seeing a flop, my best bet to win the hand is by hitting a flush. In this case, it seemed to make more sense to see the flop for a low price. Also, I am behind to any pocket pair, any better Ace, and there are still four people left to act behind me. Is this reasoning reasonable? Or should I really be considering a raise here?

Here's how the rest of the hand played out:

...Hero folds, SB folds, BB calls, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 calls.

Turn: (5 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls.

River: (8 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls.

Final Pot: 11 BB

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
BB has 3d 5h (straight, six high).
UTG+2 has Ac Ks (straight, six high).
MP1 has 2h 2d (straight, six high).
Outcome: UTG+2 wins 3.66 BB. MP1 wins 3.66 BB. BB wins 3.66 BB. </font>