A post for Tommy Angelo.
 

I'm playing in a very loose agressive game with the same old faces. The game is 10-handed. 10-20 HE.

I'm in seat 9. UTG is seat 8. 3-bettor is in seat 10.
Cutoff is in seat 4.

UTG limps, he'll limp in with any 2.

I look down and see my 2nd favorite hand in Hold'em and Raise it up.

The next guy to my left 3-bets me instantly, that only means 1 thing and that's an overpair, which overpair, I don't know yet.

It gets folded around to Mr. Any two will do in the cutoff And he calls, the blinds fold, UTG calls. I cap it. Everyone calls.

The flop is 9 4 4 rainbow.

UTG checks.
Now I decide to do something different here. Normally I would bet my Kings here 100% of the time, but I'm pretty sure that the guy on my left has an overpair, so I check thinking that maybe I can get in some type of checkraise here. He disappoints me and checks as well, as does the 3-bet cold caller.

On the turn falls a 6, no help to the flush draws.

UTG checks. I bet. and everyone calls.

The river is a 7.

UTG takes a look at the board and says "I'll bet."

I pause look at board think to myself, don't let emotion get involved in this one, and put these cowboys to bed they can't be good anymore. You know.... they aren't good. The air around you says your hand isn't good. As I'm staring at the board I can feel the disappointment in the other two players as well. I couldn't do it Tommy, the pot was too big, I knew I was I beat, but I had to do it, I had to put in the extra $20. Guy on my left calls, and now the 3-bet cold caller raises it up.

As I'm looking at the cutoff there is a certain air that surrounds him and I know he doesn't have anything its a stale air, he misread his hand, he thinks that by raising here he can represent something strong, but I know he doesn't have anything but hopes and dreams. UTG shrugs now and murmurs something and he calls. I make the fatal mistake and call again, as does the man to my left.

Tommy what did I do here.

What do you do here from preventing yourself from making these types of mistakes especially the intial one?

Why do I sometimes go against my judgement when it has proven to be correct so many times and rarely ever wrong?

Re: A post for Tommy Angelo.
 

"What do you do here from preventing yourself from making these types of mistakes especially the intial one?"

Hi Mikey,

The way I prevent from making the initial mistake of checking the flop is to not even think of it as an option. If I raise TWICE before the flop with KK, and no ace flops, and it's my option on the flop to check or bet, it is impossible for me to check.

As to the rest of the hand, I have no idea what you should have done or when or why. You were in mysterious unchartered waters. The biggest reason I would always bet in that spot on the flop is because the information stream must remain intact to be later useful. Once I make any bet that is exactly the same as what someone would do if they did not have KK, all is lost. It's like guessing all over from scratch, as to what they have, compared to simply betting out on the flop, because now I have to think about what they now now think I have, having checked, when before, all I had to do was assume that they thought I probably had a big pair, and proceed reasonably and predictably to attain maximum profit and/or savings.

The situations yet to unfold, on the flop and turn, are always too diverse in number to anticipate any of them individually, so I anticipate all of them collectively, from a position of maximum information and leverage. Bet the flop.


Tommy

Re: A post for Tommy Angelo.
 

"The biggest reason I would always bet in that spot on the flop is because the information stream must remain intact to be later useful."

Right on. I was lost throughout the whole hand because I checked on the flop.

Re: A post for Tommy Angelo.
 

Tommy used a lot of words to get to the central point which is: you should have bet the flop. I have limited experience at the $10-$20 level but I think your reasoning was faulty on the flop. You believe the person to your immediate left has a big pair so you decide to go for the check-raise. Now, it would nice to trap the other two players for a bet each but why risk whiffing the check-raise and giving a free card to two limpers/cold-callers when you can bet and possibly get to make it three bets heads-up with the other big pair after he raises and knocks everyone else out? I think check-raising is a great play but something about the dynamics of this particular situation makes it seem like a shaky idea to me.

One very important thing that I think swings the flop decision away from check-raising and toward betting is that you put in the last raise pre-flop. Given the circumstances, I prefer to bet out and hope to get raised.

Edit: By the way, I agree with the informational aspect of betting here but Tommy already covered that so I left it out.

SpaceAce

Re: A post for Tommy Angelo.
 

I would check this flop every once in a while (say 75-80% bet out and 20-25% try to check raise), but I think clearly this is not the time to do it.

The main reason IMO is because the pot is four-handed instead of two or three-handed. A free card is not so dangerous on this board, but when you start adding in a bunch of opponents, they probably have a good amount of outs added up. Heads up, I'd almost always check-raise here. But as you start adding more opponents, it gets more and more dangerous to give them a free look.

The second reason is because the pot is already pretty big just from the preflop action. I'd say you have to start trying to get them to fold. Ideally, the preflop three-bettor will raise out the rest of the field and you can take it from there.

I don't know why you got so dismayed when UTG bet out on the river. He clearly doesn't have a four or he would have check-raised the turn when you bet and he was last to act. You have majorly under-represented your hand here. This is a very easy call. You should never fold this hand. Not in a million years. Why does everyone always feel the need to make a big laydown?

Re: A post for Tommy Angelo.
 

A free card is not so dangerous on this board, but when you start adding in a bunch of opponents, they probably have a good amount of outs added up.

I'm not saying I'd check the flop, but without being exceptionally creative what hands can you give them that add up to a lot of outs? Even with redraws factored in, their typical range of hands will probably only have the equivalent of 3 or 4 outs collectively.

Re: A post for Tommy Angelo.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not saying I'd check the flop, but without being exceptionally creative what hands can you give them that add up to a lot of outs?

[/ QUOTE ]

you're right, not too many. I just get a little freaked out when the pot is big and I have multiple opponents. But he does have a pretty big hand that is not that vulnerable assuming a four isn't out there. I still think you have to bet here.

I don't know if it makes sense mathematically or not, but those extra opponents trying to hit their two-outer full houses or runner-runner flush draws really worry me when the pot starts to get big. I'd just rather have them fold.

Results and Thoughts
 

Ok, well first let me tell you step by step exactly what it is that I did and why I did do it.

Preflop I capped it, but I was absolutely certain that my opponent had an overpair, he only 3-bets with overpairs preflop and premium ones at that.

On the flop I figured that I was either way way ahead or way behind and there aren't that many cards that can come to hurt me, so I thought about it and decided that I was going to checkraise this flop. The last few days I have been thinking and writing notes and reading about opportunities to checkraise, and I figured that this would be an appropriate time.

Well it was disappointing when the guy to my left checked as well, I was distraught, and especially when it was checked all the way around.

On the turn when the 6 fell. I believed that I know held the best hand, so after UTG checks to me, I lead out and now get called in all the spots.
My thinking was routine, I have the best hand, and these guys don't have much, I'm going to bet the river here unless an Ace comes because of the action that has just passed.

On the river fell a 7. A card which didn't seem to help anyone. Instead this time UTG comes out and says "I'll bet."

I pondered a bit about 10 seconds. I looked at the board, and considered folding, but I just couldn't make myself fold. Now I know that the majority is going to jump on me here and say not to fold, but how could UTG possibly be betting here to steal this, its not likely of him, he's not that creative. He doesn't think like (WE) the two plus two community thinks.

I call for the .0005% chance that he's bluffing, which I know he's not and now I'm going against my judgement here, i called but I didn't like it. The guy to my left calls. and the 3-bet cold caller raised.

When the 3-better raised it I zoned right in on him.... a dead stare, I knew he didn't have anything. To me his cards were face up, he had nothing. I knew he had nothing, just by looking at him.

UTG murmurs and calls, and I yet make the 3rd mistake of the hand by calling again when I know I'm beat.

UTG +1 calls again.

The river raiser shouts out straight!!! He turns over a Q5o. He doesn't have a straight. He has nothing.

UTG turns over a beautiful T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] for the back door gut shot straight. I muck quietly and the man to my left flashes 2 Jacks and mucks.

Tommy Angelo brings up a very fine point by betting the flop and not disrupting the flow of the things especially because I put in the last bet preflop.

He is right.

I made a mistake. Am I mad that I lost to a runner gutshot straight, absolutely not.

I'm mad because I made 3 errors in this hand and that is the way I should be looking at it.

Re: Results and Thoughts
 

[ QUOTE ]
Tommy Angelo brings up a very fine point by betting the flop and not disrupting the flow of the things especially because I put in the last bet preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

There was nothing wrong with going for a flop check-raise given your read. It just didn't work this time.

Re: A post for Tommy Angelo.
 

Its not the need to make a big laydown, I'm not looking to make a big laydown. I never do. To me this isn't a big laydown.

Re: Results and Thoughts
 

Preflop I capped it, but I was absolutely certain that my opponent had an overpair, he only 3-bets with overpairs preflop and premium ones at that.

Why do you keep saying he has an overpair preflop? What does that mean?

Now I know that the majority is going to jump on me here and say not to fold, but how could UTG possibly be betting here to steal this, its not likely of him, he's not that creative. He doesn't think like (WE) the two plus two community thinks.

Does that mean that we in the two plus two community think this is a good spot to try to steal? I hope not.

I call for the .0005% chance that he's bluffing...

Why does he have to be sealing or have a monster? Couldn't he be value betting a pair of 9's or 7's, or a pocket pair? Afterall, the flop was checked around. He probably thinks you all have AK, that's all that you've represented so far. If you were in his position wouldn't you think there was a decent chance that something like A7 was the best hand on the river?

Re: Results and Thoughts
 

"Why do you keep saying he has an overpair preflop? What does that mean?"

Before I answer this question I want you to think about the reason why you are asking me this? What purpose does it serve that you ask me this question that you know the answer to.

For that matter I'll go ahead and answer your question which despite my use for the proper terminology I'll reclarify for you so you can sleep better tonight. What I meant to say was a "premium pair in the hole" meaning, a pair of Aces, Kings, Queens, or Jacks.


"Does that mean that we in the two plus two community think this is a good spot to try to steal? I hope not."

I would believe so, especially against someone like me who is capable of folding for 1 bet on the river, and now have the chance of making the pot heads up with the other potential losers, who have showed 0 agression through the entire post flop play.


"Why does he have to be sealing or have a monster? Couldn't he be value betting a pair of 9's or 7's, or a pocket pair? Afterall, the flop was checked around. He probably thinks you all have AK, that's all that you've represented so far. If you were in his position wouldn't you think there was a decent chance that something like A7 was the best hand on the river?"

Hey you're right he could be value betting, but I've watched this player play, if you read my initial post it says I'm playing 10-20 with the same faces, therefore I have a line on all their play, and UTG isn't a very good value bettor.

Now please do me a favor, and see if you could find any other errors I made in my previous posts and bring them to my attention this way I can clarify for you what exactly it is that I mean to say.

Re: Results and Thoughts
 

I would believe so, especially against someone like me who is capable of folding for 1 bet on the river, and now have the chance of making the pot heads up with the other potential losers, who have showed 0 agression through the entire post flop play.

I'd be shocked if any regular poster here would bluff at the river after the pot was 3-bet and capped preflop, then bet and called in two places on the turn.

Hey you're right he could be value betting, but I've watched this player play, if you read my initial post it says I'm playing 10-20 with the same faces, therefore I have a line on all their play, and UTG isn't a very good value bettor.

I think you underestimate what players will bet, even the ones you think you have a good read on. That's a recurring pattern in a lot of your posts.

It's way too expensive to be practical, but I think you'd really gain a lot by calling everyone down every time you played a hand for a session, just to see the garbage that they'll bet and the crazy bluffs they'll occasionally make.

Now please do me a favor, and see if you could find any other errors I made in my previous posts and bring them to my attention this way I can clarify for you what exactly it is that I mean to say.

I'll do us both a favor and not bother. All I'll say is that you should drop the persecution complex. I'm not spending half an hour at 4 AM replying to your thread for my own benefit.

Re: A post for Tommy Angelo.
 

hi mikey
good post. since you called a player whose limp in means nothing, even from UTG, and had no way of knowing what the CO would do, and that furthermore the CO is also a bad player, unless there is something in either of these two players' profiles suggesting that he wouldn't bet or raise without a stronger hand than two pair over-pair, and that a slowplay with a reasonable number of hands that you beat would be possible in two spots; wrong, but possible; you have no issue here mikey. you're not cold-calling two, and these guys are unreliable. that means that your calls have value. the one exception is if you think that the MP would have been weak-tight enough to play his AA like that. it looks like a lower pocket pair to me mikey.

you won't win many of these, but you will win often enough to easily call any bet, even when your call doesn't close things. and closing with a call isn't an issue either. the flop weakness shown, albeit not badly played, just the way it worked out, may have incited the type action you have here, and calling is pretty rudimentary there.

you'ven't an issue here mikey.

Re: Results and Thoughts
 

hi mikey
going for the check-raise on the flop wasn't that bad a play in this particular game unless you've been betting out with nothing a lot. it's not something that you should often do, however, it's not that bad. the difference amounts to pennies because often, you will trap and keep the back-doors coming at you, along with the weaker hands. it wasn't illogical if you had everything you needed. did you? well, you certainly had the right type game to go for a check-raise.

by the way mikey, i'm laughing here a little because i can't imagine how you think this post is a post for tommy of all people. tommy is an executive. this is a bag boy's hand. the whole entire specter of this game is anti-tommithian. you got checked around? that's happened to tommy once in his life. at airport security. the man will never fly again.

Re: A post for Tommy Angelo.
 

The votes are in and tallied, and the contraction of the week award goes to ... elysium, for "you'ven't."

Re: A post for Tommy Angelo.
 

Mikey,

I don't think giving the checkraise a shot on the flop was a mistake for a couple of reasons:

1. You're not going to get many better boards to risk giving a free card on - you're basically only afraid of an ace because even a 9 only has 2 outs and may bet anyway.

2. The player on your left is very likely to bet and you will have an opportunity to trap everyone for multiple bets when they are likely very far behind you.

Now, the reasons to not attempt a checkraise are:

1. Since you've shown so much preflop aggression, there's a chance you've scared everyone off from betting the flop and getting it checked through will risk a free card and make the hand more difficult to play from then on.

2. The pot is huge and you're happy to knock out any and everybody.

Given those reasons, I think the tiebreaker is that since you play with these guys regularly, you'd like to vary your game here and there. So if you want to put in a checkraise once in a while on the flop, this is a pretty good spot to do it given all the variables.

What are you afraid of anyway on a 944r flop, someone hitting a runner runner straight? [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

As for the river, maybe there is only a .005% that the UTG guy is bluffing. But there's a 5% chance he thinks his A9, TT, 76, 97 is good or he misread his hand and thinks his T5 straight is good.

I see it happen online all the time but it happens live too where I suddenly get bet into on the river, I scratch my head, call with my TPTK or overpair and then get shown some mediocre hand like middle pair. It's not a bluff and they don't see it that way, it's just that bad players aren't good at determining the relative strength of their hand and reading your hand. That's a big part of what makes them bad.

Luke

Re: A post for Tommy Angelo.
 

[ QUOTE ]
The way I prevent from making the initial mistake of checking the flop is to not even think of it as an option. If I raise TWICE before the flop with KK, and no ace flops, and it's my option on the flop to check or bet, it is impossible for me to check.

As to the rest of the hand, I have no idea what you should have done or when or why. You were in mysterious unchartered waters. The biggest reason I would always bet in that spot on the flop is because the information stream must remain intact to be later useful. Once I make any bet that is exactly the same as what someone would do if they did not have KK, all is lost. It's like guessing all over from scratch, as to what they have, compared to simply betting out on the flop, because now I have to think about what they now now think I have, having checked, when before, all I had to do was assume that they thought I probably had a big pair, and proceed reasonably and predictably to attain maximum profit and/or savings.

The situations yet to unfold, on the flop and turn, are always too diverse in number to anticipate any of them individually, so I anticipate all of them collectively, from a position of maximum information and leverage. Bet the flop.


Tommy



[/ QUOTE ]

This advice is so powerful, that I'm sure it was lost on many of the people who've read it.

In fact, if we each printed it out and read it out loud before every session we played, it wouldn't be too often.

When you consider the high percentage of holdem profits that come from big pairs, I'd go so far as to say this is the single most critical piece of post flop thinking I've ever read on this forum.

Thanks Tommy,

-Scott

Re: A post for Tommy Angelo.
 

Hi Scott,

"When you consider the high percentage of holdem profits that come from big pairs ..."

Could I add one little thing here which is that for a winning B&M limit-hold'em player, almost none of his earn comes from what he does with KK before the flop, or from what he does with KK on the flop when no ace flops, and that's because it's almost never right to call or fold before the flop with KK, and almost no one does, and it's almost never right to fold on the flop with KK when no ace comes, and almost no one does. So KK before the flop and usually after the flop is a huge tie.


Tommy

Re: A post for Tommy Angelo.
 

[ QUOTE ]
This advice is so powerful, that I'm sure it was lost on many of the people who've read it.

In fact, if we each printed it out and read it out loud before every session we played, it wouldn't be too often.

[/ QUOTE ]

I need a tissue.

Re: A post for Tommy Angelo.
 

thank god i'm not the only one masturbating to it!

Re: A post for Tommy Angelo.
 

I said tissue, not tubesock.

Sometimes it can make a difference. Do you see why?

Re: A post for Tommy Angelo.
 

[ QUOTE ]
This advice is so powerful, that I'm sure it was lost on many of the people who've read it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. From now on, when I cap w/ KK pre-flop, I am going to bet the flop.

Re: A post for Tommy Angelo.
 

hahaha!

Re: A post for Tommy Angelo.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I agree. From now on, when I cap w/ KK pre-flop, I am going to bet the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is good stuff. Are you planning on writting a book too U?

Re: A post for Tommy Angelo.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hi Scott,

"When you consider the high percentage of holdem profits that come from big pairs ..."

Could I add one little thing here which is that for a winning B&M limit-hold'em player, almost none of his earn comes from what he does with KK before the flop, or from what he does with KK on the flop when no ace flops, and that's because it's almost never right to call or fold before the flop with KK, and almost no one does, and it's almost never right to fold on the flop with KK when no ace comes, and almost no one does. So KK before the flop and usually after the flop is a huge tie.


Tommy


[/ QUOTE ]

Hi Tommy,

I'd disagree only in that I think he's losing a lot of 'earn' by not betting this flop with KK, but that's not really what I meant. I was referring to playing your best hands in a manner that allows you to make the best decisions as the hand continues (which in this specific case is betting the flop).

Especially in B&M games, playing in such a way that your reads on later streets are most reliabale must have a significant positive impact your earn.

-Scott

Re: A post for Tommy Angelo.
 

beware, that's a scary looking fish.

Re: A post for Tommy Angelo.
 

[ QUOTE ]
To me this isn't a big laydown.

[/ QUOTE ]

then why did you call? Twice?

and, it's not that I think UTG is bluffing, per se. But he certainly could be betting a hand that you can beat. The pot is huge, I think folding your reasonable hand is out of the question, as it will easily be good enough of the time to be profitable in the long run.

and another thing. if your reads on the two opponents on the river are so good, then why even post the hand at all, as it's way too player dependant for us to even comment on?

Re: A post for Tommy Angelo.
 

"I agree. From now on, when I cap w/ KK pre-flop, I am going to bet the flop."

And be ye healed!!

Re: A post for Tommy Angelo.
 

"and another thing. if your reads on the two opponents on the river are so good, then why even post the hand at all, as it's way too player dependant for us to even comment on?"

well that's the reason this post was adressed to Tommy and sometimes certain questions just can't be answered.

Re: A post for Tommy Angelo.
 

well that's the reason this post was adressed to Tommy.

Why not just PM him then?


Cup

Re: A post for Tommy Angelo.
 

for the same reason someone that you don't PM anyone when you have a poker question.

Then what is the reason for the forum?

Re: A post for Tommy Angelo.
 

Apparently its to publicly suck off "noted" poker "celebrities".

I respectfully disagree.
 

Hi Tommy,

It's been a while. Hope all is going well. With that out of the way, I respectfully disagree [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]. While raising with KK is right and most people tend to play KK correctly pre-flop and on the flop, I think it is still a big source of one's earn.

The reason for this isn't the Hero's masterful play of KK, but because of the Doofus play of the opponent. When the Doofus has KK, you are likely not in the pot, cause you are a tight aggressive player and you are picking you're spots(right?). When you play KK, the doofus looks at J9s and says, "Sure..I'll call two cold..Who cares if we are heads up? My hand sure looks purty and Hero probably only has AK anyhow. If I flop a J or a 9 with no AKQ on board, I think I'll raise his bet." The Doofus than proceeds to call your re-raise and sometimes even pay off your turn and river bets unimproved. Those bets, he does not have the luxury of collecting, yet you do...Hence your profit.

-James

Re: I respectfully disagree.
 

"The Doofus than proceeds to call your re-raise and sometimes even pay off your turn and river bets unimproved."

change "sometimes" to "always" and youve got it perfect.

Re: I respectfully disagree.
 

[ QUOTE ]
My hand sure looks purty and Hero probably only has AK anyhow

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL, excellent. great post.