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-   -   multiple forks in the road (http://archives2.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=404878)

ggbman 12-25-2005 02:32 PM

Re: multiple forks in the road
 
[ QUOTE ]
Surprised you'd call every time here Barron - I think a 3 bet is usually best. There are way too many hands the BB can have that really hurt your equity by letting him crawl in. Plus, by overrepresenting your hand, you usually force the UTG player to define his hand on the flop or the turn. If he does so by raising, you can almost always lay it down safely. If he caps, you can almost always find out whether you are ahead or behind on the flop.
-James

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is key. You should be able to extract enough information about UTG's hand by over-representing yours to make play easier on subsequent streets. Furthermore, dead money from the BB never hurts [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]I mix it up by calling and 3 betting here.

Onto the hand... I dont like our flop action. I think by donking it, you often get the BB to raise any pair or draw, which will either force UTG to drop his hand or define it so you can fold on the flop. I think this is best option. Since you checked and the action went bet/call, i would c/r for value. You are ahead the VAST majority of the time here, and you want to get value out of your hand. The problem with c/c is that when an A, K, or Q come on the turn you have no idea where you are at, and you also will have trouble extracting value from naked eights.

DcifrThs 12-25-2005 02:36 PM

Re: multiple forks in the road
 
i think you are definately correct if the UTG raiser is a bit looser than most. but without any read my default is usually call with 99 and down and raise TT on up in that spot, again, with no read.

hate having the bb here but you're against a UTG unknown raiser. loosen him up a touch and idefiantely 3 bet to clear out bb and make utg define his hand etc as you said.

Barron

mc1023 12-25-2005 04:01 PM

Re: multiple forks in the road
 
[ QUOTE ]
Plus, by over representing your hand, you usually force the UTG player to define his hand on the flop or the turn. If he does so by raising, you can almost always lay it down safely. If he caps, you can almost always find out whether you are ahead or behind on the flop.
-James

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think this is necessary true, your 3betting a UTG raiser and a coldcaller from the SB, that's a very small range in a 9 handed game unless you frequently 3bet marginal hands in this spot.

It may even pacify UTG and UTG+1 into call mode even if they hit an overpair to your 9 such as T-K.

Also with 99 out of position against a UTG raiser and UTG+1 coldcaller that's unknown, I don't mind BB slipping in with what is most likely a HUGE range that 99 could be a favorite over since he is getting 7:1 and closing the action. Not to mention for the times I will hit a set and BB may find a hand he likes.

6 handed or less, maybe even 7 handed where an unknowns raising standards will often be a bit looser, I like the 3bet preflop for information regardless of the callers and their respective positions.

But for a 10 handed game I think it's too strong of a line to take preflop by 3betting 99 here against two what seems like decent unknown opponents that will most likely hold 2-4 overcards to your pair preflop and have position on you.

catlover 12-26-2005 08:23 AM

Re: multiple forks in the road
 
The preflop fold question is interesting. This is one reason I think it is correct to raise, rather than call, with medium pocket pairs UTG in a high-stakes game.

James282 12-26-2005 03:00 PM

Re: multiple forks in the road
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Plus, by over representing your hand, you usually force the UTG player to define his hand on the flop or the turn. If he does so by raising, you can almost always lay it down safely. If he caps, you can almost always find out whether you are ahead or behind on the flop.
-James

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think this is necessary true, your 3betting a UTG raiser and a coldcaller from the SB, that's a very small range in a 9 handed game unless you frequently 3bet marginal hands in this spot.

It may even pacify UTG and UTG+1 into call mode even if they hit an overpair to your 9 such as T-K.

Also with 99 out of position against a UTG raiser and UTG+1 coldcaller that's unknown, I don't mind BB slipping in with what is most likely a HUGE range that 99 could be a favorite over since he is getting 7:1 and closing the action. Not to mention for the times I will hit a set and BB may find a hand he likes.

6 handed or less, maybe even 7 handed where an unknowns raising standards will often be a bit looser, I like the 3bet preflop for information regardless of the callers and their respective positions.

But for a 10 handed game I think it's too strong of a line to take preflop by 3betting 99 here against two what seems like decent unknown opponents that will most likely hold 2-4 overcards to your pair preflop and have position on you.

[/ QUOTE ]

There was no SB cold caller, we are the SB.
-James

daryn 12-26-2005 03:19 PM

Re: multiple forks in the road
 
this was a weird hand..

so i checked the turn when the K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] hit.. it went check check after me, and the last guy to act bet.

now what?

well i felt he didn't have a king, i put him on either an 8 or a semibluff just trying to represent a king and pick up the pot, and i didn't want anyone else calling one bet so i checkraised. right after i did it i thought "wow, that's a pretty bad play"

it folded to the turn bettor who called. the river came low and i bet, figuring i would be called by worse hands (and maybe a few better ones) but probably wouldn't be raised. if i checked i would have to call and he would bet a king but not raise one.

i was called by 77, go figure!

Nightwish 12-26-2005 05:00 PM

Re: multiple forks in the road
 
Preflop is fine. Given that you have no info on the opponents, I agree with Barron that calling is better than 3-betting.

On this kind of flop, I would typically go for a check-raise. Essentially, it all depends on the PFR's position. Given that the PFR is third to act (out of four), I expect the action behind me to go check, bet, call, so then my check-raise would hopefully get BB to fold and extract value out of the other two. Had the PFR been last to act, the check-raise would be even more correct because most players would check to the PFR, so my check-raise would then clear out the field. Had the PFR been in the BB, betting the flop would have been the best course of action because you then want the PFR's raise to clear out the field.

As it stands, the BB made a surprising bet, everyone called, so now you must check-raise to extract value. After that, I would bet the turn.

mc1023 12-26-2005 07:57 PM

Re: multiple forks in the road
 
[ QUOTE ]
There was no SB cold caller, we are the SB.
-James

[/ QUOTE ]

I meant coldcaller from UTG+1.

jogumon 12-26-2005 11:50 PM

Re: multiple forks in the road
 
[ QUOTE ]
well i felt he didn't have a king, i put him on either an 8 or a semibluff just trying to represent a king and pick up the pot, and i didn't want anyone else calling one bet so i checkraised. right after i did it i thought "wow, that's a pretty bad play"

[/ QUOTE ]

Bad play? Why? I'm really trying to figure out why a c/r is not the best of your three options?

If you're not going to fold (you're not, right), you have to c/r to fold the other two guys, who at this point are both looking like they're drawing, most likely to overcards. Given the action up until now, there's a pretty good chance you currently have the best hand.

SpaceAce 12-27-2005 02:38 AM

Re: multiple forks in the road
 
[ QUOTE ]

i didn't want anyone else calling one bet so i checkraised. right after i did it i thought "wow, that's a pretty bad play"


[/ QUOTE ]

Really? I like that play. Maybe I need to reevaluate, here, because this doesn't look bad to me at all.

SpaceAce


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