was this handled correctly?
 

Interesting situation, 5/10 at the Taj the other night. 3 players on the river, first to act bets, second player folds and flings his hand into the muck. Except one of his cards shoots right into the first player's hand, literally--the guy is now holding three cards, and no one can tell which one came from the 2nd player. Everyone freezes for a second. Player 2 (who folded) is in the 8 seat, and whispers his hand to the 9 seat (not in the hand), who whispers it to the dealer. The dealer is a pretty timid woman who doesn't seem to know what to do. 9 seat reaches over and takes the top card from the bettor and shows it to player 2 and the dealer. Nope, that wasn't my card, says player 2. So that card goes back to player one and they try again with another card. Player 2 agrees that the second card they just showed him was indeed his, and the dealer puts it in the muck, and play continues.

Everyone else, including the guy left to act in seat 2, was pretty much dumbfounded during this whole thing. Was it handled right?

Re: was this handled correctly?
 

im pretty sure the hand should be dead.
somebody smarter than me will have to confirm this

Re: was this handled correctly?
 

[ QUOTE ]
im pretty sure the hand should be dead.
somebody smarter than me will have to confirm this

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow. It was a pretty big pot. Someone would not have been happy with a decision to kill the hand.

Re: was this handled correctly?
 

[ QUOTE ]
im pretty sure the hand should be dead.
somebody smarter than me will have to confirm this

[/ QUOTE ]

Possibly. As the rest of the story demonstrated, there's a way to correct the fouling of the hand, and there hasn't been any action (like the big blind getting three cards and not noticing until his turn to act, at which point his hand is nothing but dead).

For sure this is one of those cases where nobody should move a muscle except to yell "FLOOR!" What happened is probably right (since everybody did at least have the sense to stop), but it really shouldn't be another player handling it.

Some will say the guy should have protected his hand better, but they're mostly the sort who'd say the same if an asteroid crashed through the roof of the cardroom onto their cards. "Oh, well, gotta protect your hand...never know when an asteroid's comin'..."

(OK, earlier it was the grumpy pills...I dunno what I'm on now. Too much tea and wanting to go home, maybe.)

Re: was this handled correctly?
 

The only way a dealer should handle this is to immediately stop the action and call the floor.

If the floor had corrected the hand this way I wouldn't be to upset, but I if the floor called the hand dead I wouldn't be surprised.

Player throwing his cards in the muck that hard should get kicked in the nuts.

last night I had the problem occur that when the button was on seat 7, player UTG in seat 10 folded his cards by snapping them quickly out just in time to intermingle with the last card I was pitching to the button. There simply was no reason to do this since he was in seat 10 since folding from seat 10 doesn't require that you fling them.

The floor called the hand a misdeal, which only bothers me because it creates an incentive for UTG to try to do this if he doesn't like his hand.

Re: was this handled correctly?
 

[ QUOTE ]
im pretty sure the hand should be dead.
somebody smarter than me will have to confirm this

[/ QUOTE ]

From what I understand ff the hand was protected (with a chip or something) I dont think it would be dead, if it wasnt it would. But I could be way off.

Re: was this handled correctly?
 

This sorta thing happened to me while playing at the MGM earlier this week.

Seat 1 is UTG and calls the BB (he put his chips over the little yellow line). Seat 2 is ordering a drink and pushes her cards into Seat 1's hand. The dealer rules both hands dead and tells Seat 1 that his money has to stay. He did tell him that if he had protected his hand with something, like a chip, his hand wouldn't have been dead as it was obvious who's cards were whos.

Seat 1 was pretty pissed and I told seat 2, my wife, to give the guy $2 as a "I'm sorry". It was her first time playing so she didn't realize what she had done and the guy in Seat 1 was a total moron so I figured it was in our best interest to keep him happy. The $2 sorry was good enough to get him to stick around and buy in again. Yay.

Re: was this handled correctly?
 

It's the players responsibility to protect his hand. His hand is dead and the pot is awarded to the only player left with a live hand. The only other thing that can be done is if both players agree the pot can be split.

Re: was this handled correctly?
 

The player with an extra card should simplify the situation by either folding his cards or calling and announcing what he has without looking at the extra card. Or raising and promising to say what his hand is without looking if called.

If the floor is called he should be able to preserve the hand and would be correct to do so.

NT

Re: was this handled correctly?
 

[ QUOTE ]
This sorta thing happened to me while playing at the MGM earlier this week.

Seat 1 is UTG and calls the BB (he put his chips over the little yellow line). Seat 2 is ordering a drink and pushes her cards into Seat 1's hand. The dealer rules both hands dead and tells Seat 1 that his money has to stay. He did tell him that if he had protected his hand with something, like a chip, his hand wouldn't have been dead as it was obvious who's cards were whos.

Seat 1 was pretty pissed and I told seat 2, my wife, to give the guy $2 as a "I'm sorry". It was her first time playing so she didn't realize what she had done and the guy in Seat 1 was a total moron so I figured it was in our best interest to keep him happy. The $2 sorry was good enough to get him to stick around and buy in again. Yay.

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Whether or not your wife gives Seat 2 the $2 should not depend upon your opinion of him. She should give him the $2 because it was completely her own bonehead mistake.

Re: was this handled correctly?
 

[ QUOTE ]
If the floor is called he should be able to preserve the hand and would be correct to do so.


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I disagree. The rules of poker clearly state thats it's the players responsibility to protect his own hand. The hand in question was fouled. I'm all for doing everything possible in the best interest of the game but in this case it's cut and dry.

Re: was this handled correctly?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This sorta thing happened to me while playing at the MGM earlier this week.

Seat 1 is UTG and calls the BB (he put his chips over the little yellow line). Seat 2 is ordering a drink and pushes her cards into Seat 1's hand. The dealer rules both hands dead and tells Seat 1 that his money has to stay. He did tell him that if he had protected his hand with something, like a chip, his hand wouldn't have been dead as it was obvious who's cards were whos.

Seat 1 was pretty pissed and I told seat 2, my wife, to give the guy $2 as a "I'm sorry". It was her first time playing so she didn't realize what she had done and the guy in Seat 1 was a total moron so I figured it was in our best interest to keep him happy. The $2 sorry was good enough to get him to stick around and buy in again. Yay.

[/ QUOTE ]

Whether or not your wife gives Seat 2 the $2 should not depend upon your opinion of him. She should give him the $2 because it was completely her own bonehead mistake.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh I agree, but he refused up and down to take the $2. I think he was embarrassed that he didn't have his cards protected and felt like a newb.

Re: was this handled correctly?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
im pretty sure the hand should be dead.
somebody smarter than me will have to confirm this

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow. It was a pretty big pot. Someone would not have been happy with a decision to kill the hand.

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yeah but there is always at least one person who isnt happy after almost any floor decision needs to be made.

Re: was this handled correctly?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If the floor is called he should be able to preserve the hand and would be correct to do so.


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I disagree. The rules of poker clearly state thats it's the players responsibility to protect his own hand. The hand in question was fouled. I'm all for doing everything possible in the best interest of the game but in this case it's cut and dry.

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IT depends on how the hand is protected. When a player makes an effort to protect their hand they are entiteld to some protection if it becomes fouled. In this case his hand is fouled which makes it subject to being ruled dead.

Re: was this handled correctly?
 

$2 is not bad for Fish Food.

Re: was this handled correctly?
 

[ QUOTE ]


Some will say the guy should have protected his hand better, but they're mostly the sort who'd say the same if an asteroid crashed through the roof of the cardroom onto their cards. "Oh, well, gotta protect your hand...never know when an asteroid's comin'..."


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Reasonable effort. Every reasonable effort should be taken. I don't need a gold ingot on my cards. I DO need a gold ingot, though!

I like the way it was handled. While I don't trust anyone 100%, it was done honorably. The guy told someone what he had, and they pulled the card. The player who received the unexpected "gift" did try to improve his hand, since he didn't give up the correct card on the first try. (Caught that?).

Re: was this handled correctly? NO
 

Sorry, I missed the part where the floor was called. WHAM! RIGHT IN THE NUTS!

al

Re: was this handled correctly?
 

Everyone should keep in mind tho that a "fouled" hand does not directly and absolutely equate to a "dead" hand (a misconception held by the vast majority of un-knowledgable players, dealers, and even floors). A fouled hand MAY be ruled dead.

I see no reason why the floor would summarily rule the hand dead here. If both the player who folded and the player who was still in could clearly identify their cards, the hand was salvageable. But not calling the floor to figure it out is inexcusable.

The responsibility of protecting one's hand does not extend to unreasonable means either. I mean what ARE you supposed to do, put a playover box on top of your hand every time, with a 50 Kg weight on top of it? This seems more like a freak accident than an obviously and blatantly unprotected hand.

al

Re: was this handled correctly?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Everyone should keep in mind tho that a "fouled" hand does not directly and absolutely equate to a "dead" hand (a misconception held by the vast majority of un-knowledgable players, dealers, and even floors). A fouled hand MAY be ruled dead.

I see no reason why the floor would summarily rule the hand dead here. If both the player who folded and the player who was still in could clearly identify their cards, the hand was salvageable. But not calling the floor to figure it out is inexcusable.


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Thank you. I was gonna add that. I've seen multiple times when a hand was not called dead just because another card touched it, protected or not. In one recent case, the 9 seat tossed her cards at the dealer and they landed just barely on the unprotected 10-seat's. It was absolutely clear which cards were which, and the dealer watched it the whole time. He gingerly took the cards off to muck 'em when a person not in the hand started shouting "that's a dead hand--kill that hand--kill that hand!" There's like $400 in the pot and the dealer says "I am NOT killing his hand over this" and the lady continues to shriek "call the floor! That's a dead hand!" Floor comes over, listens to the story, and says "no way I'm killing his hand--play on". Nobody else still in the hand is bent outta shape, 'cause it's crystal clear which cards were which, but the lady screaming for the hand to be killed continues to shriek about what a horrible ruling this is and ultimately she picks up her chips and leaves saying she refuses to play in such an unprofessional card room.

This is the same chick who earlier gave me a glare of death and a lecture about minding my own business and how "it's the dealer's job to call the hands--players are not allowed to call hands" when I pointed out that the guy with JJ hit a straight and beat her KK on the river a second before the dealer was about to push the $150 pot to the lady and her KK.

Yeah... don't let the door hit your fat rear on the way out, lady.