Pushing three times in one orbit.
 

I've become a convert to the push/fold method, and recently moved from the 22s to the turbo 27s on Stars.

I frequently find myself in this situation: I have had no cards at all through the early levels, and have never entered a hand. Then at 75/150, 5 players, I'm down well within push/fold range, push from the button, then the cutoff, both times picking up the blinds. Then UTG I have a something like A9s or ATs, push again, and get called by a pocket pair or AJ.

Does anyone here consider how many times in one orbit you're pushing and stealing, or is it correct to just do it whenever all other conditions are right?

Or do you consider how many times someone else has pushed when making a decision to call?

I'm thinking there might be something like the gap concept at work--maybe you need a better hand to push the third time in one orbit than the first or second.

Re: Pushing three times in one orbit.
 

Simple solution...adjust the other players calling ranges to be looser when doing ICM analysis of your hands

Re: Pushing three times in one orbit.
 

Yes!

I think about this a lot since I play the turbos on stars myself.

I like to think of it as my fequity tank. I imagine it like a health or mana meter in a video game on my monitor. It may sound retarded, but visualizing this is key, at least for me.

With a full meter, as in you haven't pushed at all yet, you can have a huge range. But with each successive push your fequity tank is further depleted and you need to narrow your range accordingly. By the time your tank is exhausted you actually need a legitimate hand to push, not just a SNGPTSEZITSEV+ hand.

Re: Pushing three times in one orbit.
 

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Does anyone here consider how many times in one orbit you're pushing and stealing, or is it correct to just do it whenever all other conditions are right?


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of course. If i had just pushed a few hands in an orbit, my range in what I push after that tightens in most situations. The main reason for this is that failing to do so ignores the fact that people start thinking you are becoming a maniac and adjust their calling ranges accordingly.

Re: Pushing three times in one orbit.
 

I think it's even more than just them adjusting their calling ranges, though that obviously occurs. It becomes emotional to them, they become infuriated with your "ruining of the game."

You will certainly see this if you are in a bubble where the big stack is a donk. After a few pushes in a row, his calling range widens closer and closer to 100%, to where he'll eventually amp himself up before the next hand, "If he pushes again I'm calling." Poker isn't about pot odds or ICM to them, it's f'ing machismo.


Another point I don't think has been mentioned is that this is why you should be pushing most of your premium hands as well, especially if you've exhausted most of your fequity with prior pushes. Nothing like pushing for the third time in a row, only this time with KK, and getting spite called by the BB's JT.

Re: Pushing three times in one orbit.
 

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I think it's even more than just them adjusting their calling ranges, though that obviously occurs. It becomes emotional to them, they become infuriated with your "ruining of the game."

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I know where you're going, but it IS 100% "adjusting their calling ranges". While it's important to fathom an opponents real or perceived reasons for doing so, it's never more than adjusting the range appropriately. ICM will only answer the question you give it.


EDIT: Rereading your post, I may have misunderstood the purpose of your statement. Just giving reasons why they loosen so much? Cool...

Re: Pushing three times in one orbit.
 

I didn't intend to suggest that to ICM the situation you needed to do more than loosen the ranges. I meant to convey that something beyond a normal adjustment occurs after you push several times in a row. Understanding their emotional state and what they are thinking will allow you to accurately loosen their range, as irrational as it all may seem to players like us.

Re: Pushing three times in one orbit.
 

If I see someone push 3 consecutive hands, I mentally discount the possibility that he got 3 straight premium hands and adjust my calling range accordingly.

I assume my opponents do likewise.

So I'd need a much stronger hand to push a third straight time than to push when I haven't done so in a while.

Re: Pushing three times in one orbit.
 

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I didn't intend to suggest that to ICM the situation you needed to do more than loosen the ranges. I meant to convey that something beyond a normal adjustment occurs after you push several times in a row. Understanding their emotional state and what they are thinking will allow you to accurately loosen their range, as irrational as it all may seem to players like us.

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Cool, understood. The "passing on SNGPTSEZITSEV+" suggestion would imply then that the user simply didn't enter the correct range. Having done so, +EV is +EV of course.

Re: Pushing three times in one orbit.
 

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ICM will only answer the question you give it.

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The only answer ICM will give you is the equities based upon stack sizes.