fire the third barrel?
 

No real reads on opponent here. I never reraise AQ out of the blinds..i'm assuming that's debatable but standard for me. I guess I shouldn't say never, i'll do it against perceived steals and hyper-aggro players, but not against unknowns which was the case here. This is about my second orbit at the table.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 5 handed) converter

Hero ($47.08)
BB ($25.70)
UTG ($39.05)
MP ($9.95)
Button ($24.50)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. Hero posts a blind of $0.10.
UTG calls $0.25, <font color="#CC3333">MP raises to $0.75</font>, Button calls $0.75, Hero (poster) calls $0.65, BB calls $0.50, UTG calls $0.50.

Flop: ($3.75) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $3</font>, BB folds, UTG folds, MP folds, Button calls $3.

Turn: ($9.75) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $9</font>, Button calls $9.

River: ($27.75) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $11.75</font>, Button calls $11.75 (All-In).

Final Pot: $51.25

Should I check/call this river or do you think firing is standard. I bet because i wasn't folding to a bet and I didn't want a check behind...if he hit the flush so be it, I never gave him the odds to chase it. Thoughts?

Re: fire the third barrel?
 

shameless bump, is this hand really that uninteresting?

Re: fire the third barrel?
 

Your post title implies that you think you're bluffing. Do you think this?

I like every street. I'd probably bet slightly less on the turn, but your PSB is fine, too.

Re: fire the third barrel?
 

Can't you check-fold this river? I know you're getting good pot odds but it seems the only hand you beat is KQ, and many people could have folded that on the turn. I think you see a straight (TJ) or a flush.

Re: fire the third barrel?
 

I think you see QJ or TT often enough to commit you to this pot. I can see check-call, but not check-fold.

Re: fire the third barrel?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Can't you check-fold this river? I know you're getting good pot odds but it seems the only hand you beat is KQ, and many people could have folded that on the turn. I think you see a straight (TJ) or a flush.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not picking on you personally, but I think that this is yet another example of weak-tight play that is beginning to become commonplace on this forum.

First of all, if he had a straight, villian would have almost definitely moved in on the turn to knock out a flush draw.

Secondly, just because people at these levels play almost any two suited, it isn't necessarily true that every time the third flush card comes out that they have a made hand.

I can find a check-call here (NEVER a check-fold without a read), but I much prefer the way that OP played this hand. I think 90% of the time, you're winning (more often against KQ or QJ) or chopping (obviously less often). Even when you lose with this betting pattern, I think it's against 2 pair, like 89. If villian played a flush draw this way, oh well...put him on your buddy list because if he draws without odds, then you're going to make money off him more often than not.

Re: fire the third barrel?
 

Well played, if villian actually has you beat you'd expect him to come to life at some point. Any better made hands would need to protect themselves from draws, I would expect to see some type of midpair here most of the time or KQ. JMO

Re: fire the third barrel?
 

How can you check fold there? Villian could be calling with much worse hands than even KQ.

Re: fire the third barrel?
 

I think betting this river is far far better then check/calling. If you are going to call anyway then you should just be the one betting. The main draws got there so he can't be induced to bluff. By letting him decide to bet or not you let him check behind with all sorts of mediocre hands that will call but let him get the money in if he hit. Basically if the action goes check-bet-call your are more likely to be behind then if it goes bet-call.

Re: fire the third barrel?
 

I'm mostly a SnG player just getting back into ring games, but am I the only one that folds this preflop?

Re: fire the third barrel?
 

ok...just wanted to check my play here. I debated whether to check/call or just go ahead and bet. I thought if he had the flush I was calling a push, and if he didn't have the flush, but had a hand i was beating, then he might check behind on that river scare card. Because of this I elected to just push it in, and villain called with QTo and MHIG. Just wanted to check my line. Folding never entered my mind here, the pot was just too big and if I did check, I was calling his bet (he only had around 11 left...i'm not folding that into a pot this size.)

Re: fire the third barrel?
 

NH. I think that being too timid on the river is probably one of the major leaks of many SSNL players. I noticed it myself that I was checking to many rivers where I ended up having the best hand. It has been my main focus for quite some time now and I think I have helped my bottom line out quite a bit by taking more time on the river and not always getting weak with semi-decent hands.

Of course there are always times to check/call the river but I think once I learned that move it kind of took over and I would do it on autopilot at times.

Re: fire the third barrel?
 

yes

Re: fire the third barrel?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm mostly a SnG player just getting back into ring games, but am I the only one that folds this preflop?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not folding AQ in a 6max game for .50 cents. These smallish raises are typically far from premium hands. I thought I had the best hand preflop but did not want to build a large pot out of position early...if the flop looked ok for me, then I would play agressively, otherwise i'd quietly fold.

Re: fire the third barrel?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm mostly a SnG player just getting back into ring games, but am I the only one that folds this preflop?

[/ QUOTE ]

It's definitely not unreasonable to consider folding preflop with AQo in the SB. But in this case I think that pot odds make it fairly easy to conclude that you should see the flop.

Re: fire the third barrel?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm mostly a SnG player just getting back into ring games, but am I the only one that folds this preflop?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not folding AQ in a 6max game for .50 cents. These smallish raises are typically far from premium hands. I thought I had the best hand preflop but did not want to build a large pot out of position early...if the flop looked ok for me, then I would play agressively, otherwise i'd quietly fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

This sounds like good reasoning. You say that the raises and flat calls are not premium hands... is this a result of playing 6 handed tables or because of the micro limits?

I'm interested if calling a preflop raise and flat call OOP with AQo would still be considered a good play at higher stakes.

Re: fire the third barrel?
 

well the reason I call is for a couple of things. I think my hand is best...but I don't reraise. He is not expecting me to wake up with AQ here...not to mention that the preflop raiser folded to my flop bet anyway. _Most_ people are reraising with AK, KK and AA...the only real hands i'm afraid of here. Also _most_ villains are reraising a set or a straight somewhere on this hand.....i mean, I'd reraise one on the turn because of the flush possibility and the thought that I might not get paid off if the flush hits the river, or even worse, I might lose.

Also at the 25nl tables, people will flat call a raise with any two cards, and I mean any two. I fold a lot of stuff to that raise, I probably don't call it with AJo...AQ is about the limit of the stuff i'd call a raise with from the SB..i'd call with pocket pairs too. The flat calls don't worry me at all, because i'd expect a raise from KK,AA or AK, which is really all I fear.

By just calling, I get some deception here...if He's got an ace smaller than me, I'm in good shape, and if an ace flops, i'm going to play cautiously because I could be behind AK from the original raiser...the best card for me is the queen, which I got.

Re: fire the third barrel?
 

Thanks for the explanation. I was interested in the preflop call.

I like the way that you played it post flop and agree with your reasoning. An overpair, flopped set or 2-pair probably would have re-raised you on one of the streets. You have to think you're ahead here. If he had made his flush on the river, you just add him to your buddy list with a note that he will call with flush draws without getting odds and make your money back the next time.

Thanks again.

Re: fire the third barrel?
 

[ QUOTE ]
NH. I think that being too timid on the river is probably one of the major leaks of many SSNL players. I noticed it myself that I was checking to many rivers where I ended up having the best hand. It has been my main focus for quite some time now and I think I have helped my bottom line out quite a bit by taking more time on the river and not always getting weak with semi-decent hands.

Of course there are always times to check/call the river but I think once I learned that move it kind of took over and I would do it on autopilot at times.

[/ QUOTE ]

Tremendous point!

Until I got Pokertracker, I hadn't realized how much my aggressiveness dropped off on the river. PT was worth the price just for plugging up that leak.

Re: fire the third barrel?
 

I dont think weak/tight has become common on this fourm. In my month or so posting on this fourm my river agression has increased a lot. I am betting strong but not the nuts hands on the river way more often than I did before I started posting here.

Re: fire the third barrel?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I dont think weak/tight has become common on this fourm. In my month or so posting on this fourm my river agression has increased a lot. I am betting strong but not the nuts hands on the river way more often than I did before I started posting here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think where increased river aggression has helped me is not so much in the nuts and strong hands, but the "could go either way" hands.

Getting that 20% fold equity is what makes those hands profitable.

Re: fire the third barrel?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I dont think weak/tight has become common on this fourm. In my month or so posting on this fourm my river agression has increased a lot. I am betting strong but not the nuts hands on the river way more often than I did before I started posting here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think where increased river aggression has helped me is not so much in the nuts and strong hands, but the "could go either way" hands.

Getting that 20% fold equity is what makes those hands profitable.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am not sure exactly what you are saying. If I make a river bet I want it to be called. But often only called. I am not trying to push better hands out on the river very often. I am too tight of a player to be trying to push a better hand out, if I make it to the river I either have a real hand or a very strong draw. An example would be when I flop top 2 pair with a board that has a flush draw. I lead out, flat called. Turn is a blank, I lead again, flat call. River brings that flush card. In the past would have checked this to see what villian does. Now I am leading again, knowing if I get flat called again I have the hand won 85% of the time, and if villian moves all-in I can fold. I consider this hand a strong hand but not the nuts obviously, and this is the kind of hand I am talking about.

Like I said in the past I would have checked and opened myself up to bluffs and missing a value bet if villian decided to check behind, I think the increased agression this fourm has brought me has helped my line.

Re: fire the third barrel?
 

I put the button on a J10, I don't see how he could call a pot sized bet on the turn unless the 8 helped him, I think a check/call is standard here because you are only going to get called by a hand that beats you and of course you are going to call any bet he makes on the river if he decieds to bluff.

Re: fire the third barrel?
 

darn I was off by one card....

Re: fire the third barrel?
 

I wouldn't be betting so large in this hand personally. I dont want to play a 200BB pot OOP with only one pair with no reads on this board.

Betting nearly pot on the flop and on the turn leads to a massive pot and you don't really know where you are here.

But I do like the river play. I'm not folding there, so we're going to push all in and calling is up to him.

At these limits there's so many times you're ahead here because of the total crap the opponents are playing and calling you down with that check/fold in this spot with how he played the hand doesn't make sense.

But I prefer a pot control approach in this hand.